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I agree with much of the substance of what you say, but I think word choice and tone say a lot about how we feel about a topic, and you seem to be saying that there are "desirable" men, and then there are men "at the bottom". That seems to remove the majority of men, who are neither generally desirable not at the bottom of some hierarchy. I'm pretty sure what I noticed isn't what you think, but it is pretty much what you did. Is that choice of words and tone worth examining?
Desirability: I discussed this elsewhere with the 80:20 concept. I think the majority of people (not just men) fit the bill of being attractive to groups of other people. How many people find a certain specimen desireable depends on the qualities of that specimen and the preferences of the beholders. (And I’m not just talking appearances, there are other qualities that go into it as well).
Every individual makes a subjective determination about other individuals on how desireable they are. I think everyone accepts a certain percentage of people as desireable and rejects the remainder as undesireable. Everyone’s tastes are unique, so the percentages of people seen as desireable, as well as the qualitities seen as desireable, will naturally vary. It’s not literally 80:20 universally, and neither are the individuals in one’s “80%” and “20%” universally accepted as the same, but that is the nugget of truth behind the 80:20 concept pushed by certain ideologies.
There are individuals who have more and more desireable qualities to the point that they are almost universally accepted as attractive. But the opposite is also true...there are individuals who lack so many desireable qualities that they are almost universally rejected as unattractive.
My point with dating, options, and selectivity is that women, who now have more options along with being the ones who, according to cultural norms, do the final selecting and approving of initial encounters, can more easily raise the bar on who they find desireable enough to interact with without significantly impacting their field. Most guys (or their profiles) have qualities that work for a large enough portion of women to experience success in dating. Some, in my experience, do not. The same thing goes for some women, but as the cultural acceptors of the dating market I believe such women are rarer; glibly, there’s a lot more men into BBW than there are women into dadbods.
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Originally Posted by homina12
Regarding who does or doesn't have an advantage, let's say your claim that women have some advantage in dating is true. What does that gain you? If everyone agreed, what would you gain by that consensus? Who are you arguing your case before? If it isn't clear, I'm arguing that whether you have a point or not won't change anything, and so you're putting effort into something that might be better spent elsewhere.
And elsewhere might involve clarifying for yourself who you want to meet, where (or how) you might meet her, and what attributes you already possess might catch her interest. That, along with a reasonable effort on your appearance, body language, and managing the normal anxiety that dating may cause, amounts to you doing your best to meet your needs. Whatever the near term outcome, what more than doing your reasonable and thoughtful best to meet your needs can you expect from yourself?
I enjoy good discussions and debates. If you think this is me wasting my time you should see how I used to spend it. Arguing a point here and doing my best to further my chances on the dating market aren’t mutually exclusive; some would argue that in honing a point I’m honing my mind and my assertiveness, both things that could be assets to me.
The number of complaints online is tremendous. Dating sites probably are up there with cable companies and the DMV as the most disliked service providers. I think the issue is that most of the big ones are now owned by the same few corporations. Most people don't want to be single or sexless and therefore aren't fully quitting those sites. That is in part because, unless quite extraverted, it seems like singles just don't consistently socialize offline anymore. Virtually the only game in town. I don't know how long it will take for improvement to happen (other than some small anti-ghosting steps that are underway). Meanwhile, the misery that it's probably causing....
What are these numerous complaints? And what online dating improvements do these companies need to make?
Also, to backtrack to the notion of whether "happy" is too much to expect, think of the long-term. How many people won't someday go into a funk or develop a long-lasting, mood-lowering health issue? How many people will be elderly and remain charming social company? What then, break up?
That's when happy in your overall situation comes in. It doesn't mean everybody's swinging from the chandelier all the time, it means you can lean on your spouse when these things come up, which they can and probably will. If you already dislike the person, you're going to be doubly depressed in these situations, and then things can get REALLY bad.
I can't understand how you're coming to this conclusion. Are you taking an honest look at all the couples you know? At family gatherings, friends...people at work...etc.?
In fact, what I've seen (all my life) is the opposite: most men I've known have said, "I have to like her physically first, then I want to see what's underneath/inside...but 'that' has to be there..." And on here: "It's just biology...men are visual..." These are generalizations and not every single man says them but it seems to be overwhelmingly in that direction. So I'm not sure what you're seeing, unless it's OLD specifically, in which case...geez! Get off OLD!
Now, do we women need to be attracted...obviously. But from what I've seen...women are trained to give what's "inside" far, far more weight - including what we're sexually attracted to (i.e. sense of humor, or whatever). It's instilled from Mother's knee upward, LOL. Whereas nearly universally, men are given a pass on "needing to be visually attracted."
Not to be all feminazi about it but if you want to truly experience what it is to be judged physically first, you need to wear a vagina for a few months.
Almost all men judge on looks to the degree that they won't pursue without being physically attracted. Everyone knows that, and ultimately with women as gatekeepers, it's probably more relevant how picky women are about men's looks.
Of course I know of couples where men and women are neither good-looking nor fun, characteristic, or something roughly equivalent, but among younger couples, at the bare minimum good looks usually are present. As far as I can tell, for the young people the article focuses on, it's becoming normal for guys who don't make a quick positive impression to be struggling. Are they supposed to sit out for years while the other sex wises up or becomes desperate and not become warped?
Almost all men judge on looks to the degree that they won't pursue without being physically attracted. Everyone knows that, and ultimately with women as gatekeepers, it's probably more relevant how picky women are about men's looks.
Of course I know of couples where men and women are neither good-looking nor fun, characteristic, or something roughly equivalent, but among younger couples, at the bare minimum good looks usually are present. As far as I can tell, for the young people the article focuses on, it's becoming normal for guys who don't make a quick positive impression to be struggling. Are they supposed to sit out for years while the other sex wises up or becomes desperate and not become warped?
Would you be willing to state how old you are? You sound like you're talking about really young girls, TBH.
Are they supposed to sit out for years while the other sex wises up or becomes desperate and not become warped?
Those aren’t the only options. I think the most pernicious advice I’ve gotten is “Just be yourself.” It’s right up there with “Just act like someone you’d rather be.” If yourself isn’t attractive...need to do some work to improve that. Be the best version of you that you can be...then see where the chips fall.
What are these numerous complaints? And what online dating improvements do these companies need to make?
I already got into the few ideas I have for dating websites to make. Unfortunately, I can't count banning swiping sites as an idea, because that's fantasy territory. I never specifically said that the problems on dating sites are particularly because of their set-ups.
The complaints are on here, on Reddit, in articles.... I've never heard of a person saying he or she had many online-initiated interactions or attempted interactions with a bunch of different people without any decidedly unhappy experiences, while it's factually established that many users never have particularly good experiences. A counterexample could interject here, but I doubt that will happen.
Would you be willing to state how old you are? You sound like you're talking about really young girls, TBH.
I'm not, and I'm not. I know of much superficial, immature behavior by grown women, at least into their 30's. I don't know if anybody has run one of those obnoxious online dating experiments specifically on women who aren't young.
When I brought up the "40 is the new 30" concept, there are two negative ways to look at it - people are taking longer to act like adults and also as years go by, many of the good ones disappear from the dating scene.
It's a little weird to bring the women-cheat-more-than-ever finding into the mix, but it's hard for me to not link that and a dismissive attitude when dating. *If* average young guys are no longer good enough for average young women, there's something foul happening. Also probably involved is men who would do okay but they've been burned before, much like women stereotypically sit out after being burned. There's more animosity than ever between the sexes, right? That goes hand in hand with feeling mistreated and avoidant behavior.
Those aren’t the only options. I think the most pernicious advice I’ve gotten is “Just be yourself.” It’s right up there with “Just act like someone you’d rather be.” If yourself isn’t attractive...need to do some work to improve that. Be the best version of you that you can be...then see where the chips fall.
I approve of that, and I've lived it. However, I think the option is recognized as limited. Genetics and personality very likely will prevent Mr. Ordinary from turning into a Tinder success story, and I think some lose hope and give up instead. It's a natural reaction to the extended failure that online dating easily can be, and there are too many other enjoyable things to turn to.
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