Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sure it would. If you put so many hoops in front of people to jump through that it would require hiring a lawyer and a team of accountants, going to court seventeen times, submitting a "business plan" that will become useless in a year or so, skipping work/school to take stupid classes that will charge you an arm and a leg for tuition, waiting 2 years for administrative processing, undergoing 3 FBI checks, writing to one's senator or congressman for help to find out wtf your application is, and waiting another 18 months for your application to be processed -- most people will just say f- it, especially since no one can prevent them from simply living together. FYI, many Western countries are suffering from a profound decline in marriage rates. The institution is already dying -- so I guess the perfect solution is to make it that much harder to get married. [/end sarcasm]
Your right ill-prepared people and unhappy marrigages are the answer to preserving the institution of marrigae. Proper counseleing before entering into a binding legal contract is not necessary. Dont even read it, just sign it. You can always go through a long and painful divorce. Divorce is the easy part!
Your right ill-prepared people and unhappy marrigages are the answer to preserving the institution of marrigae.
The recipe for more unhappy marriages is making people believe that sitting through a stupid course is the equivalent of sprinkling magic dust on their union that will make all potential problems evaporate. Don't cheat on your spouse -- duh. Don't beat your spouse -- duh. Don't abuse your children -- duh. Discuss major financial transactions before undertaking them -- duh. If any grown person actually needs such plain truths explained and dissected to him/her, that person not only has no business getting married -- he/she should be segregated from the rest of society and have their car keys and sharp objects taken away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaudet2b
Proper counseleing before entering into a binding legal contract is not necessary. Dont even read it, just sign it.
Actually, it isn't. Any one who is over, say, 15, should understand what a contract is. We don't require counseling for people who take out mortgages, even crazy mortgages. We don't require counseling for people who enter into partnership agreements, although a partnership dissolution is every bit as messy and painful as a divorce. I just find very condescending the idea that grown people somehow need to be spoon-fed and micromanaged, with the assumption that they are stupid and irresponsible and don't read the things they sign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaudet2b
You can always go through a long and painful divorce. Divorce is the easy part!
From someone who has worked quite close to this industry for years: NOTHING you do before marriage can prevent a long and painful divorce. NOTHING. People with the most meticulous and voluminous prenuptial agreements, who plan everything but the color of each others' underwear by days of the week, still end up litigating their squabbles for years and years in the most vicious ways possible. That's life. Most of divorce litigation comes from resentment that builds up over years and years of conflict -- and there is nothing any stupid pre-marriage counseling or governmental agency can do to prevent it.
I thought the divorce rate has increased greatly from 1966? Of course there is no magic answer to happy marriage. There has always been divorce and there always will be. I am divorcing now. All it takes is irreconcilable differences, which could me, he snores too much.
Im not advocating making it so difficult as to have to go to such extremes or to endure abuse. I hear young people say prior to marriage, well if it dosent work out, Ill just get a divorce. In my little world, it wouldnt be that simple, then perhaps people wouldnt be so flippant about it. Im thinking a standard contract that can be modifyed stating if one commits adultry, becomes additcted, wont hold a job, abandonment, whatever is agreable to both, those are grounds for divorce and the violator will suffer financially in the divorce. If one wants a divorce because the other snores too loud the divorce is granted, but with fines or penalities, outlined in the contract. This might make people put more thought into getting marriage and making their marriage work.
The recipe for more unhappy marriages is making people believe that sitting through a stupid course is the equivalent of sprinkling magic dust on their union that will make all potential problems evaporate. Don't cheat on your spouse -- duh. Don't beat your spouse -- duh. Don't abuse your children -- duh. Discuss major financial transactions before undertaking them -- duh. If any grown person actually needs such plain truths explained and dissected to him/her, that person not only has no business getting married -- he/she should be segregated from the rest of society and have their car keys and sharp objects taken away.
Actually, it isn't. Any one who is over, say, 15, should understand what a contract is. We don't require counseling for people who take out mortgages, even crazy mortgages. We don't require counseling for people who enter into partnership agreements, although a partnership dissolution is every bit as messy and painful as a divorce. I just find very condescending the idea that grown people somehow need to be spoon-fed and micromanaged, with the assumption that they are stupid and irresponsible and don't read the things they sign.
From someone who has worked quite close to this industry for years: NOTHING you do before marriage can prevent a long and painful divorce. NOTHING. People with the most meticulous and voluminous prenuptial agreements, who plan everything but the color of each others' underwear by days of the week, still end up litigating their squabbles for years and years in the most vicious ways possible. That's life. Most of divorce litigation comes from resentment that builds up over years and years of conflict -- and there is nothing any stupid pre-marriage counseling or governmental agency can do to prevent it.
I was being sarcastic, didnt translate I guess.
But, Do you think it would honestly hurt to somehow prepare a young person for a relationship that has very strong expectations? (not sacractic, just asking)
I dont really care, I will never marry again.[/quote]
Im sorry to hear that. I beleive every relationship is different. I look back now and say, "There were signs when we wre dating that this wouldn't work. Why couldn't I see them?" I wasn't looking. I wanted to get married. I was 18! I knew exactly what he was like because I knew him for 2 years. NOT! Part of the divorce was me too. I just don't like basketball that much! I want to live in the country! Among other problems we grew apart because we married while we were still growing.
The recipe for more unhappy marriages is making people believe that sitting through a stupid course is the equivalent of sprinkling magic dust on their union that will make all potential problems evaporate. Don't cheat on your spouse -- duh. Don't beat your spouse -- duh. Don't abuse your children -- duh. Discuss major financial transactions before undertaking them -- duh. If any grown person actually needs such plain truths explained and dissected to him/her, that person not only has no business getting married -- he/she should be segregated from the rest of society and have their car keys and sharp objects taken away.
I dont think people believe it is magic dust, but it dosent hurt. There are people that are that clueless and no they shouldnt marry. There are things young couples dont think about or think to discuss. Problems that might arise from finances, children, extended family, personal expectations. Counceling my help raise awarness.
How do you feel about the mandatory parenting classes for divorcing couples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaudet2b Proper counseleing before entering into a binding legal contract is not necessary. Dont even read it, just sign it.
Quote:
Actually, it isn't. Any one who is over, say, 15, should understand what a contract is. We don't require counseling for people who take out mortgages, even crazy mortgages.
Given what has happened, counseling may not be a bad idea before taking out a mortgage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaudet2b You can always go through a long and painful divorce. Divorce is the easy part!
Quote:
From someone who has worked quite close to this industry for years: NOTHING you do before marriage can prevent a long and painful divorce. NOTHING. People with the most meticulous and voluminous prenuptial agreements, who plan everything but the color of each others' underwear by days of the week, still end up litigating their squabbles for years and years in the most vicious ways possible. That's life. Most of divorce litigation comes from resentment that builds up over years and years of conflict -- and there is nothing any stupid pre-marriage counseling or governmental agency can do to prevent it.
Long painful divorces cant be eliminated, but how do you know that pre-nups or counseling hasnt prevented divorces?
Im sorry to hear that. I beleive every relationship is different.
[/quote]
No need to be sorry. Ive been married twice. Im older, have a good job, my own place, my kids are grown, I do what I want, why in the world would I want to marry again. Im very happy now.
I thought the divorce rate has increased greatly from 1966?
Yes, but there was no change in the rate of increase. Which only shows once again that the reason for the growing divorce rates (which, by the way, have actually been leveling off since the early 1980's) is gender equality and economic prosperity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Of course there is no magic answer to happy marriage. There has always been divorce and there always will be. I am divorcing now. All it takes is irreconcilable differences, which could me, he snores too much.
Someone's trifle is another person's serious issue. Divorce was either very difficult or downright impossible throughout the ages -- and yet history knows no example where the coercive force of law resulted in a bad marriage straightening itself out. In a "fault state", there has never been a case where divorce was denied, and the result was that the couple reconciled and went back together -- NEVER. In such a situation, the parties would continue to litigate and eventually divorce anyway, years and many thousands of dollars later. You want to spare people heartbreak? Make divorce easier, not harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I hear young people say prior to marriage, well if it dosent work out, Ill just get a divorce.
Although I often hear people say that "they've heard" someone else express this sentiment, I confess I have never, ever actually heard anyone utter this phrase or its equivalent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Im thinking a standard contract that can be modifyed stating if one commits adultry, becomes additcted, wont hold a job, abandonment, whatever is agreable to both, those are grounds for divorce and the violator will suffer financially in the divorce. If one wants a divorce because the other snores too loud the divorce is granted, but with fines or penalities, outlined in the contract. This might make people put more thought into getting marriage and making their marriage work.
Actually, no. That would make people put more thought into getting out of the marriage without incurring the penalty. What you are suggesting used to be the law, and experience shows that it does not make marriages stronger or happier -- it only makes divorces nastier and more expensive, and marital acrimony, spousal abuse and infidelity more socially acceptable. It would also create a situation where a lot of people would simply separate without divorcing and live that way indefinitely -- and I cannot think of anything more damaging to the institution of marriage than such a prevalence of "marriages" that exist in name only. The first (and in my opinion, most eloquent) early advocate of humane divorce laws, John Milton, lived in a time when divorce was virtually impossible -- but ironically, most people did not take marriage seriously. Couples lived apart for years, took lovers openly and with full knowledge of each other, and generally acted in ways that would make an American postfeminist modern liberal's jaw drop with a thud. That's what I meant when I said that a lot of people divorce because they take marriage seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I dont really care, I will never marry again.
I think that's a good way to go for a lot of people. There are certainly other things in life.
I dont think people believe it is magic dust, but it dosent hurt. There are people that are that clueless and no they shouldnt marry. There are things young couples dont think about or think to discuss. Problems that might arise from finances, children, extended family, personal expectations. Counceling my help raise awarness.
Yes it does hurt -- because it invites the government to micromanage yet another personal aspect of people's lives and negatively impacts collective mentality by treating grown children as babies. Beaudet's experience notwithstanding, most Americans marry later today than people once did. They already have experience with finances, living in an extended family, and juggling conflicting personal expectations. Besides, advice in this area is totally useless, anyway. If people won't heed the advice of their parents, relatives and closest friends, what makes you think they'll listen to some "certified counselor" droning over a Harvard outline of how you should expect to feel towards your spouse if you happen to have a severely disabled child?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
How do you feel about the mandatory parenting classes for divorcing couples?
Negatively. Apart from the issue of actual physical or sexual abuse, I don't feel good at all about the government "standardizing" what proper parenting is. There are many things that are generally considered proper parenting in the American culture that I INTENSELY disagree with -- I don't think it makes me a bad parent, and I wouldn't want some pencil-pusher who doesn't know me or my family lecturing me on how to relate to my children. As for the issue of abuse -- if a person actually needs a class explaining in excruciating detail that you shouldn't torture or rape your children, that person should be kept as far away from kids as possible; and thus a parenting class would be moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Long painful divorces cant be eliminated, but how do you know that pre-nups or counseling hasnt prevented divorces?
Okay, first the prenups. There are many people passionately arguing that absolutely every marriage should come with a prenup. They put forth lots of reasons why prenups are supposedly necessary. What they don't put forward is any statistics demonstrating that couples with prenups are less likely to divorce, or that divorces in which there are prenups are litigated faster, cheaper, etc. The fact that advocates of prenups are silent on this issue leads me to believe the statistics are not in their favor. The simple truth is, at most, a prenup will guarantee a practical result in the event of a divorce -- but it will not force people to act rationally, honestly or amicably. If a person will keep his cool and respect his soon-to-be-ex-wife as the once love of his life and the mother of his children, he doesn't need a piece of paper to remain a decent human being. But if he is resentful and consumed with desire for revenge, no prenup in the world will stop him from (1) divorcing you; (2) litigating the divorce to the hilt; and (3) even contesting the prenup itself. The prenup may be upheld in the end, but resentful and hateful spouses will derive emotional satisfaction from torturing each other over it. Nor will a prenup do anything to prevent marital misconduct. You can sign any contract you want about how you will never feel angry towards each other, but how effective do you think that would be in accomplishing what it mandates? You can't contract to always be in love. You can't contract to always respect each other. You can't contract never to feel hostile towards your spouse. Contracts are not a panacea.
As for counseling -- a person would have to have lived under a rock all his life not to know about the option of counseling. People who want to salvage their marriage and believe counseling can help do take that option. But it takes two to tango, and counseling will assuredly not work if spouses are ordered by the court to take it (although this would be a boon for counseling businesses). By the time people actually retain attorneys and file papers, the marriage is definitely beyond saving.
Last edited by Redisca; 04-03-2009 at 01:50 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
