Odd couples (woman, love, family, separate)

[Coolhand68]

New rule...everyone cleans up after themselves! Tell them you will no longer be picking up after anyone or putting something back in it's place if you didn't make the mess. Since both you and your husband work, tell him he has two choices...either he accepts your contributions to the home as it is, or he can fend for himself--do his own cooking, laundry, dishes, etc., that way he can live up to his own standards.

He can't force you to do anything, and what's the worst that will happen if you refuse? Will he scream at you, slap you, throw tantrums, divorce you? Trust me, you stop doing his laundry for two weeks and eventually he'll get tired of wearing dirty underwear and do it himself. What's that, you want to eat off a clean plate...oh well, wash one! You'll never get your point across with words, it will take some action, or non-action in your case, to drive the point home.

[max's mama]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I don't know how many of you remember the 1960's television show the Odd Couple but it comes to mind in an issue that keeps cropping up in my marriage. The issues is, my husband would like life neat and orderly and I really don't care if a cup is left on the counter instead of put in the dishwasher. When I visit his mother, she drives me nuts. She's, CONSTANTLY, picking up some piece of fuzz or using a nasty dishrag that hangs wet, growing germs, and ready to wipe down anything that doesn't look just so so. I figure if there are more important things in life than whether or not there are dust bunnies under the couch (According to Shrodinger's theory, they don't exist anyway until you look )

Now, my husband doesn't want to actually do the work to make life orderly. He wants me to do it. I have no freaking idea how to make myself care that things are out of place. I just don't. I have bigger things to worry about in life. If the bathroom doesn't get cleaned this weekend, no one will die. If I don't get grades posted, I have students who will remain grounded who will be angry at me and it will have a negative impact on my ability to teach them. Now, my husband isn't about to actually clean the bathroom (we've been married 32 years and I've yet to see him clean the bathroom).

I figure life is way too short to sweat the small stuff and housework falls into my small stuff category. Especially during the school year when I have like 2 hours a week of free time (defined as time I'm not grading papers, planning lessons, shopping for supplies, prepping labs or just turning into a vegetable for an hour or so because I, desperately, need a break. (yes, I consider me maintenance time more important than whether or not dishes landed in the sink instead of the dishwasher. I should probably be shot for that ).

The way I see it, my husband is always saying "My (his) life is not _________ enough." And someone else is supposed to take care of what goes into the blank. The problem is, I don't want to be him. I don't want stupid stuff like whether or not the mail got left on the counter to matter that much. (Besides, every time he files the mail for me, something doesn't get paid because my way of dealing with what's important is to keep it in plain sight until I deal with it. If you put it in the mail bin he has for, me, it'll never be seen again because I, rarely, have the time to go through the entire stack to find what's important. UGH.)

So, what do you do when one person wants things so, so, isn't willing to do the work to make them so, so and harps on the other person, who doesn't care if life is cluttered because she just doesn't see it as important? I don't want to come home and have things that are out of place screaming at me making me miserable as my husband says they do him (Personally, I believe that if we did fix this, it would then be something else someone else controls that is making him miserable).

This all came out of our 14 year old's therapy session last night. Which has me puzzled because she's the worst of the bunch when it comes to leaving things lying around. Apparently, she's given up because I'm too frustrating to live with.

Oh, he also sees everything I or our youngest daughter leaves out of place but just cleans up after our older daughter. If a plate is left in front of a computer, he yells for dd#2, if I tell him it's not hers, it's dd#1's, he'll just put it in the dishwasher. If it is dd#2's he'll make her put it away (which she should, it's hers).

Appaently, the next session is going to be a family session all about making dd#2 and I neater so dh and dd#1 are happy. I don't believe either will happen. Dd#2 and I are too much go with the flow. We take care of the important stuff and don't sweat the small stuff and most stuff is small stuff.

Any advice from people who just don't care if their house looks lived in and feels no compulsion to put everything in it's place who live with someone who want's to come home to a home and garden picture perfect home that he doesn't actually want to work to keep that way? Because I don't care, this stuff just doesn't make my radar. I can walk through a room with 10 things out of place and never notice them. Now there comes a point that my mess radar says clean it up but it's way beyond my husband's setting.

This is one of the areas I side with Dr. Laura on. I heard her talk to a man with the same complaints about his wife, years ago, and she told him "To him who cares goes the effort to fix it" (or something like that). In other words since it bothered him, he should make sure everything found it's place. I would just rather clean up the mess I made making pancakes after I eat mine.

I'm very confused to be honest. In parenting forum you are struggling with giving your children the sense of importance and here is a situation where they are in such need to contribute to the neatness of the house and housechores that it's almost a desperate situation. Wouldn't it give them the sense of importance to take some of that load of you? And I'm talking about all of your kids.

And speaking of your husband, if he has such high standards, he better contribute in major way himself.

[CESpeed]

I feel you Ivory, I totally feel you. If it doesn't smell bad or look dirty I couldn't care less. And then one day I'll be looking around and decide that the mess is on my nerves and go into a cleaning frenzy. But my solution to peace was to live alone but you don't have that option, so I'll move on to something I saw in your post: the cleaning chart. I would tell dh and dd#1 that in the interest of compromise, the house will cleaned if EVERYONE pitches in.

I would make the chart, with jobs only rotating once per week. Tell dh and dd#1 that if they don't do their part, then the chart goes away and everything stays as is. If they pitch in and do their share, then the chart will stay and the house wil be clean.

I really think your dh is using the teen rebellion stage to make it an us against her thing so he'll have an ally in the house. I would try to go to counseling to see if he'll shift alliance so that the battles are the parents vs. the kids, as it should be.

[Mooseketeer]

I am one of the neat freaks of Nature, borderline compulsive-obsessive in fact and live not quite with a slob but with someone who is shall we say a lot more... relaxed.. about stuff like that than I am.

I do tend to do the very vast majority of the cleaning, and ALWAYS clean up my own mess but I do not see why I have to clean up after his all the time . If I messed up his work papers there would be hell to pay. As a reluctant "housewife" ( due to long term health problems I cannot work anymore), the house is my work and I don't appreciate my very hard work being messed up simply because he can't be bothered to pick something off the floor. I can imagine if I started to destroy his latest report... I am sure he would be really understanding about that ! But apparently destroying mine is somehow not a problem.

He is usually quite good about it but sometimes it is as though I am living with a toddler rather than a grown up human being. I realise I am a little too obsessive about the house and don't mind doing most of it but sometimes it would be nice if people cleared their own mess up .

When two people have to live together compromises have to happen and I have had to greatly relax my own standards since being ill . Being thoughtful once in a while is not a bad thing to expect though.


I do totally agree though that if you have high standards but create mess it is a bit hypocritical to expect someone else to clear it up. You cannot be a messs-creator and expect your spouse to clean it up.

I just think a little consideration goes a long way though.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by max's mama

I'm very confused to be honest. In parenting forum you are struggling with giving your children the sense of importance and here is a situation where they are in such need to contribute to the neatness of the house and housechores that it's almost a desperate situation. Wouldn't it give them the sense of importance to take some of that load of you? And I'm talking about all of your kids.

And speaking of your husband, if he has such high standards, he better contribute in major way himself.

I was talking about a sense of real importance over on the parenting board. My kids know, as well as I do, that if the floor doesn't get swept today, no one dies. It's irrelevent in the big scheme of things.

What I don't get is if this is so important to dd#1 and dh, why they aren't taking the lead. It's not important to me. I decided long ago that I'd take care of the important stuff first and if some of what is not important doesn't get done, oh well.

Honestly, the real fix here would be for dd#2 and I to move out. If we're the problem, get rid of us. It's clear, someone is going to be miserable here. Either dd#2 and I as we work to make life what dh and dd#1 want it to be to the exclusion of what we want life to be or vice versa. There's no middle ground here. I either turn into my mother in law, except I have to do it on top of an 80 hour a week job, or dh learns to deal with the fact that housework isn't high on my list right now. It's apparent I cannot make him happy and I'm blamed for him and dd#1 being miserable.

Now that dh isn't drinking, I'm, strangely ok with that. This is what he wanted when he moved out three years ago but I fought him tooth and nail because he drank too much to have custody of one of the kids (he didn't want dd#2 just dd#1). If the problem is they need to live in a neat, orderly household I cannot provide, the solution is to give them their own household to run as they see fit. I, assume, he'll leave dd#2 with me as he sees her as being as much of the problem as he does me.

Funny, this was the first argument we had in marriage counseling. The counselor told him to hire a housekeeper and drop it. Unfortunately, there's no budget for one now.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I am one of the neat freaks of Nature, borderline compulsive-obsessive in fact and live not quite with a slob but with someone who is shall we say a lot more... relaxed.. about stuff like that than I am.

I do tend to do the very vast majority of the cleaning, and ALWAYS clean up my own mess but I do not see why I have to clean up after his all the time . If I messed up his work papers there would be hell to pay. As a reluctant "housewife" ( due to long term health problems I cannot work anymore), the house is my work and I don't appreciate my very hard work being messed up simply because he can't be bothered to pick something off the floor. I can imagine if I started to destroy his latest report... I am sure he would be really understanding about that ! But apparently destroying mine is somehow not a problem.

He is usually quite good about it but sometimes it is as though I am living with a toddler rather than a grown up human being. I realise I am a little too obsessive about the house and don't mind doing most of it but sometimes it would be nice if people cleared their own mess up .

When two people have to live together compromises have to happen and I have had to greatly relax my own standards since being ill . Being thoughtful once in a while is not a bad thing to expect though.


I do totally agree though that if you have high standards but create mess it is a bit hypocritical to expect someone else to clear it up. You cannot be a messs-creator and expect your spouse to clean it up.

I just think a little consideration goes a long way though.

If he were cleaning the house and I were messing it up behind him, I could see him complaining. He's not cleaning it either. He's just complaining that I don't clean it and I mess it up (of course he doesn't track in dirt anything and contribute ). I have too much on my plate to care about it. I do what needs to be done to make sure we have clean clothes and are fed (he cooks most days but I usually get the clean up) and anything else that gets done is a plus. I admit I do the bare minimum these days but it's because I can't keep up at work. I feel like I'm drowing. I can't talk to him about it because he says he doesn't like to hear me complain so I vent here. I haven't done much of that lately because people thought I was being too negative on the education board. Well, given I used it as my steam vent, yeah, I probably was. Go figure.

I have three, heavy, lab based preps, six classes of papers to grade, I owe my princicpal two curriculum maps, I have IEP meetings to attend, kids coming after school for tutoring/lab/test make ups, I have to set up all experiments, tear them down and clean the lab. At home, I have to make sure dd#2 gets to and from her piano classes and events and help with homework (usually math). I make sure towels and clothes get washed, the bathroom gets cleaned on a semi regular basis, and just do piddly stuff like loading/unloading the dishwasher during the week. When I'm not grading papers, or writing lesson plans or researching a topic, I do go on line and veg out. Seems like I'm on a lot but reality is I'm on the computer a lot and it's easy to check in on a thread, take five minutes to post and go back to writing a lesson plan on Atwood's machine (it's on my other monitor as I type this). This is my steam valve. Too bad cleaning isn't my steam valve like it is for a friend of mine. We'd be all set. She comes home from a stressful day and destresses by mopping floors. Unfortunately, housework is just chores for me. I get no satisfaction out of it. Now a well written lesson plan or a new lab that I design, those are things I can be proud of so I get that reports matter to your husband and housework doesn't. I feel the same way.

And now it's back to grading labs and figuring out the derivations for the equations to use with the Atwood machine...I'm so happy...I've been looking for a lab I could do to calculate the force of gravity that doesn't require photogates or timers (only have one timer that I bought myself). And yes, when I put this one in my books to be used year after year, I will be proud of it. Way more proud than I'd be if I spent that time mopping the floor. I really don't get caring about housework. It's just housework. It never ends. It's never done. You can never admire your work for more than 5 minutes before it's messed up again. Suzy homemaker I am not.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by CESpeed

I feel you Ivory, I totally feel you. If it doesn't smell bad or look dirty I couldn't care less. And then one day I'll be looking around and decide that the mess is on my nerves and go into a cleaning frenzy. But my solution to peace was to live alone but you don't have that option, so I'll move on to something I saw in your post: the cleaning chart. I would tell dh and dd#1 that in the interest of compromise, the house will cleaned if EVERYONE pitches in.

I would make the chart, with jobs only rotating once per week. Tell dh and dd#1 that if they don't do their part, then the chart goes away and everything stays as is. If they pitch in and do their share, then the chart will stay and the house wil be clean.

I really think your dh is using the teen rebellion stage to make it an us against her thing so he'll have an ally in the house. I would try to go to counseling to see if he'll shift alliance so that the battles are the parents vs. the kids, as it should be.

You know, it's worth a shot but I'm thinking living alone is the real answer here.

I agree with him wanting an ally in the house. I had hoped THAT would come out in counseling. I was really glad when he had to take her this time (he's so convinced I'm the problem that it's also my job to take her to counseling but I had a conflict this time.) but it appears to have backfired.

Seriously, though, if I leave and take dd#2 with me (it would be them against her if I left her), there's no ally situation to be had. They would just be on their own to figure out that neither one of them actually wants to put in the effort to make their lives what they want to complain about someone else not doing for them. While I don't believe that the amount of housework I do is the issue, as long as they believe it is, no progress will be made. I'm just not in position to do much about it at this time. Dd#2 and I need to move for a while. I wonder if that job offer in Texas is still good... My MIL suggested that it was time for me to find work out of state and just deal with two households. Maybe that's not such a bad idea.

[PassTheChocolate]

Well, there are usually "more important things in life" than many things we complain about. I find that approach to be dismissive and counterproductive. Some complaints may not be life altering, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. I agree that he should be more involved in what matters more to him, but I think there is a lot more going on here.

Picking up after one daughter and not the other sends the wrong message. He should clean the bathroom every weekend himself if it is that important to him, he should leave the mail alone if you are the one paying the bills. But I don't see the harm in picking up your own dish or cup and putting it in the dishwasher. It isn't a huge chore, doesn't take up that much time, you won't be worse off for it (neither will your kids) and the house is that much tidier. We're talking 60 seconds, maybe.

We all have different personalities, but when you live with other people, you have to make some adjustments. "I don't care enough." doesn't make things any better. You need to care enough to, at least, pick up after yourselves.

I don't pick up after people I live with who are perfectly capable, especially kids. I make the rules, they either live by them or pay a consequence.

Appaently, the next session is going to be a family session all about making dd#2 and I neater so dh and dd#1 are happy.

I really don't believe that you and dd#2 are going to be targeted so the other two are happy. If you really think this, you need to find another counselor.

[Mooseketeer]

[quote=Ivorytickler;13383679]If he were cleaning the house and I were messing it up behind him, I could see him complaining. He's not cleaning it either. He's just complaining that I don't clean it and I mess it up (of course he doesn't track in dirt anything and contribute ).QUOTE]


And as you can see from my post if you read it I agree with you that is is unreasonnable of him to expect a perfect house if he does not contribute. That is hypocritical.

I am uber-tidy and thus at least my "demanding" standards are one I keep to. If he is messy , he has no right to expect you to be his cleaner.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by PassTheChocolate

Well, there are usually "more important things in life" than many things we complain about. I find that approach to be dismissive and counterproductive. Some complaints may not be life altering, but that doesn't make them insignificant either. I agree that he should be more involved in what matters more to him, but I think there is a lot more going on here.

Picking up after one daughter and not the other sends the wrong message. He should clean the bathroom every weekend himself if it is that important to him, he should leave the mail alone if you are the one paying the bills. But I don't see the harm in picking up your own dish or cup and putting it in the dishwasher. It isn't a huge chore, doesn't take up that much time, you won't be worse off for it (neither will your kids) and the house is that much tidier. We're talking 60 seconds, maybe.

We all have different personalities, but when you live with other people, you have to make some adjustments. "I don't care enough." doesn't make things any better. You need to care enough to, at least, pick up after yourselves.

I don't pick up after people I live with who are perfectly capable, especially kids. I make the rules, they either live by them or pay a consequence.



I really don't believe that you and dd#2 are going to be targeted so the other two are happy. If you really think this, you need to find another counselor.

I'm not saying they're huge chores. I'm saying they don't hit my radar. We tend to take care of what matters to us. If it doesn't matter to me if my coffee cup sits on the counter until I'm ready to run the dishwasher, I just don't think to put it in the dishwasher until I need to. It's very hard to make yourself care about things just because someone else wants them that way when they don't, naturally, hit your radar. How do you change your radar settings to accomodate someone elses preferences?

I grab the mail, put it on the counter, so it's in my face, and deal with it when I have time. He'll file it and then I forget about it until we get a phone call or a late notice and then he's mad because I didn't take care of it. If I had it my way, everything that needs to be done would be stuck to the refrigerator with magnets, in my face, until I could get to them. Filed in a mail slot that I get around to sorting through about twice a year doesn't do it.

What's difficult is me running my life a certain way because he wants his run a certain way. I, naturally, run my life the way I'm set to run. I need to change my settings. To become something I'm, naturally, not to please him. Do I even want to do that? It appears, someone is going to be miserable here to accomodate the other one. Either that or we're going our separate ways. I'm thinking the latter as I can't do anymore than I'm already doing. I don't have time to organize his life on top of everything else that I percieve as important.

I think the counselor thinks this is an easy fix. Dd#2 and I just turn into neat freaks and all is well. Apparently, that's the idea dh and dd#1 came away with from the session yesterday. It's not going to work though. Even if I had the time, we're talking about things that just don't, naturally, hit my radar. I can look at something out of place all day and not even realize it's out of place until you point it out. It's just not in my "I care" column. If I don't "see" it, how do I train myself to, constantly, fix it do he doesn't ever have to see it and be bothered by it? I'm not bothered by it so I don't "see" it.

I don't think I"m going to the next session. I really don't want to sit there and be told it's my fault because I don't keep house well enough. I know many people feel that way but I think they're wrong. I don't think keeping eveyrthing neat and organized is necessary or even healthy. I like my life to look lived in. I hate going to people's houses where you feel like you can't touch anything and need to take your shoes off to keep the place spotless. I never feel at home in them. Now I'm supposed to live in one so he and dd#2 are happy? Sounds like it's us or them. Two people will be happy and two miserable.