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I really want to understand The Fall of Man/Original sin concept but it seems somewhat silly; there's got to be more to it than just the tempitous snake and fruit tree.
I've got my own thoughts about some type of Fall of Man but in my thoughts the Fall would have began prior to Eve's arrival.
Of course everything depends upon how one interprets the Bible but Gen. 1:27 says the first prototype Adam was made in the very image of the Gods -male and female.
Eve dosen't come into play until around Gen 2:21 depending upon which creation story line you follow.
Is it possible Adam originally had a womb?
It is said "man is not complete unless he has a womb-man" and not "man is not complete unless he has a rib-man."
Gen. 2:23 does refer to bone of my bones. But it just doesn't make sense to me. Was Adam just glad to have another human with him in the Garden?
Post-op Adam looked at Eve an instantly proclaimed something remarkable, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother", and shall cling to his wife, and they shall be one flesh Gen 2:24.
Instantly, Adam knew about parents and he knew that this newly established relationship must be reveered.
In some of the forbidden text the act of love-making between a man and a woman is portrayed as a very spiritual experience invoking the very presence of God. The two parts become one flesh and is not simply by placing thier thoracic cavities in close proximities.
Is it because man is temporarily back with his womb?
According the Bible man was initially created in the very image of the Gods. Later, due to un-foreseen circumstances man had to be re-engineered.The re-engineering of Adam obviously would have made him unlike the Gods. Something was removed from Adam that differeniated him substantially from Eve and made him un-like the Gods.
If Adam was initially created like the Bible says Gen. 1:26 And God said let us make in our image, after our likeness:...Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he him....initially Adam was "perfect" then he wasn't. This seems like some sort of a failure very early on. Some (Plato) have surmissed that Adam, pre-Eve, was the creator of a super-race of hermaphrodites that went on to establish Ad-lantis. Maybe Atlantis was the original Fall of Man.
The Bible really dosen't say how long Adam was alive prior to Eve's creation but (he) was Biblically in existence for a while before Eve came along and all things had been created; nothing new was created when Eve created except Eve.
When it was first determined Adam needed a help-meet shouldn't that be considered as discovering a defect in a perfect product? Wouldn't this have been man's first first folly? well maybe that was the Gods' folly.
There has got to be more to The Fall of Man belief system other than a reptile and a tempting fruit tree.
I really want to understand The Fall of Man/Original sin concept but it seems somewhat silly; there's got to be more to it than just the tempitous snake and fruit tree.
I've got my own thoughts about some type of Fall of Man but in my thoughts the Fall would have began prior to Eve's arrival.
Of course everything depends upon how one interprets the Bible but Gen. 1:27 says the first prototype Adam was made in the very image of the Gods -male and female.
Eve dosen't come into play until around Gen 2:21 depending upon which creation story line you follow.
Is it possible Adam originally had a womb?
It is said "man is not complete unless he has a womb-man" and not "man is not complete unless he has a rib-man."
Gen. 2:23 does refer to bone of my bones. But it just doesn't make sense to me. Was Adam just glad to have another human with him in the Garden?
Post-op Adam looked at Eve an instantly proclaimed something remarkable, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother", and shall cling to his wife, and they shall be one flesh Gen 2:24.
Instantly, Adam knew about parents and he knew that this newly established relationship must be reveered.
In some of the forbidden text the act of love-making between a man and a woman is portrayed as a very spiritual experience invoking the very presence of God. The two parts become one flesh and is not simply by placing thier thoracic cavities in close proximities.
Is it because man is temporarily back with his womb?
According the Bible man was initially created in the very image of the Gods. Later, due to un-foreseen circumstances man had to be re-engineered.The re-engineering of Adam obviously would have made him unlike the Gods. Something was removed from Adam that differeniated him substantially from Eve and made him un-like the Gods.
If Adam was initially created like the Bible says Gen. 1:26 And God said let us make in our image, after our likeness:...Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he him....initially Adam was "perfect" then he wasn't. This seems like some sort of a failure very early on. Some (Plato) have surmissed that Adam, pre-Eve, was the creator of a super-race of hermaphrodites that went on to establish Ad-lantis. Maybe Atlantis was the original Fall of Man.
The Bible really dosen't say how long Adam was alive prior to Eve's creation but (he) was Biblically in existence for a while before Eve came along and all things had been created; nothing new was created when Eve created except Eve.
When it was first determined Adam needed a help-meet shouldn't that be considered as discovering a defect in a perfect product? Wouldn't this have been man's first first folly? well maybe that was the Gods' folly.
There has got to be more to The Fall of Man belief system other than a reptile and a tempting fruit tree.
I think the point is being missed..."God creates"....Doesn't say Humans are to do it....So when Adam and Eve are brought together...it is not in a sexual way..to concieve children....it is to help in the Garden....as originally planed for their making....only two were made!
Now God says later on in the Bible.(after the fall).."who are all of these?" out of the great ordeal?....what ordeal?....Putting something back sinlessly, that was taken in disobediance.....how many helpers does it take humankind to comply?....and the number of that accounting is?
Just wondering if you follow things in order?....God creates, and what God creates is Good...usually...but something entered into the senerio that polluted their minds in the beginning of Genesis......that they could be like GODS...AND MAKE LIFE..AND WORLDS LIVE??..ect.....and as it is before us to study...humans are depleting the one and only planet they were given, and polluting it, and defiling it...and doing all kinds of stupid things to it....everything but what God, and Christ Jesus asked us to do....wonder why?
Now if we are to be like God....then we need to share everything like God said he shares with us....and if we share all things (nothing omitted) and learn how to use all things in a good light....THIS WORLD WOULD BE EDEN.
But right now in 2010...it is anything but!
So the fall of Man and Woman...(Humankind?) is on a bent tangent..a obtuse or bent direction...and it is getting worse!
So how far does humankind fall?....
That will be the final proofing, that humankind is not kind nor humane!
But then we find some going in the opposite direction...and those bent with profits in their eyes, seem to want to imprison them, or oppress them, or make war on them....wonder why?
Rev17:17...comes into play....and the first instruction...and being sinless...and putting back what was taken in disobediance....restores something to its rightful place, so God can feed the creation eternally...and save some from those who seek to destroy the planet and all life, with their bent need for burning fossil fuels, and tainting the waters and soils with toxic waste...while asking for humansacrifices in wars...to this day...and not giving any bread nor water freely to anyone!
If you support this...and most people do by way of the engraven IDOL told not to have in use.....and we pay the taxes which promote the industrial madness and machines that are responsible for the pollution...and we buy the dead blood to burn in our daily lives....then we are all guilty of a crime against nature that God made Good....with no mention of the need for any of it...other than what God made...to tend and keep...sinlessly....
And because we omit the plants required to climatize the planet daily, monthly, yearly and continually....the need for these poisonious fuels are made more and more necessary.
See it starts with a small thing...and it snowballs into a big thing....
The cornerstone of life...at this cornerstone...is a plant and God and his SON!
And God said "I give you everything"...and a list of plants is mentioned...for good reason!
Draw a line to that...put it back...put them all back...and be sinless in that..and share like God shares....Sinlessly!...upholding the commandments of God, and the laws of the lands...and feed the living things...and help God out....teach them we are humankind...and bring them back too!....for it is because of our forefather and Mother they have turned wild.
Ah...this makes peace with nature, or some form of harmony!...and there is no other way to do what is right for all living things....they are all part of the chain of life....each one has a designated function for a dedicated reason....and if something is removed at the onslaught of human failure to comply to God....then everything has to shift its true nature because of that error made.......to a unnatural one...in some instences...untill the error is corrected by the ones who made the error in the first place, and all of their children understand why!
If I take a food supply away from nature...then something that needs that food, has to change its dietary requirements....and the system which depends on the One of a kind and "only plant of its kind" once upon a time, that is gone missing (because of ADAm and EVE eating it)...needs to be put back for the system that God made naturally eternal to work right on both sides of any equation.
So...Prohibition of Plants is Anti Eden, Anti God, and Anti Christ!
Now look at this learning...that is being denied because of bent minds on profits from detramental sources...which endanger all living things...including human life...and putting that as their foundation for their system...and stopping or oprressing, or prohibiting certain plants from being sown, and used in a Good light.,,which solves the Green house gass problem, makes food, cleans the waters through transpiration, makes the atmosphere, and ozone, and is tied to the sun, and stores energy as heat...to climatize the enviroments in which it is sown!
Also it makes holy ground, when the sower is sinless...thus the lands are made sinless, or come into Judgment by the sower or sowers who sows it...
Now this plant has attributes, which are industious...and it is fruitful...and it belongs in nature somewhere...if not everywhere...and it also works well in Hydroponic systems which do not need to be rested because no soil is used...so the law of the lands...if for the lands, things grown on that land contains earth....But hydroponics has no Earth...and thus we do not need to rest that system...which in turn makes more soils...so we can make more lands abundantly giving that are not!
And it does not stop there...oh no...more worlds to make...and that starts with making this system abundantly Giving...and in a sinless way...offer up some to God...so he can seed new worlds...amen?
Now maybe that is what Abel and Cain ment to do?...but Cain omitted some plants from his offering....and Abel omitted nothing...from what he had.
Cain judged plants as being some Good, and some bad or weeds....when God said they are all Good.
See where things went slanted with Cain?..Cain holds back something from God...for himself?....that is why God favours Abels offerings more...
But then Cain commits murder of his own Brother.....a sin....ontop of a sin...
Ah ha..then Moses finds the plant again as the burning Bush on the side of a mountain, and recieves the laws to gain sinlessness!!...and then Jesus comes trying to get them to see their error with IDOLATRY, and breaking of the commandments!!!...and they Kill him for saying it is all Good when taken with thanksgiving"...meaning of course what God made....and there is no money listed in what God made....God is a God of living things...So plants are Good..when used in the right way...and if no right way is made for them...and we oppress those who Grow them, and make wars, and other attrosities, so that detramentals take hold, and cost us more..and we gain constant death because of those sins constantly being made in the world because of something people don't believe in, and believe in doing the opposite of (tending and keeping) to that Prime Directive God asked we do...then who is in the wrong?
Acts 3:21 and 10:15 when the line is drawn to Genesis1:11, 1:12, 1;29, 2:15, 9:3 and Rev 17:17..should of taken ADAM and EVE a second to do...but they did not do what God asked of them...and here we are some time after...and after being forewarned by Christ...2000 years still doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons....and where is a second world born of this one???
Still falling...eventually it will all start dying off, and burning...and then it might be too late, if not already....and look, they still denie the plants liberty...and continue to burn fossil fuels mindlessly, and destroying the ozone, so the suns harmful UV light scorches the earth more.....while not to many are sowing those seeds anymore for God....they are now using them for profits and gains in that IDOLIC system...Which totally Goes the wrong way....
Now...We can see...and we can study the book with open eyes...and relive the past, by putting it back, and seeing what God ment by it being at the center of the Garden Principle...putting it back where it belongs without profaning anything!...and trying real hard to do it for the right reasons...and make a industry that utilizes all the attributes, feeds the hungry for free, and the animals and insects...and maybe once that is done...and we all comply to God, and stop sinning...we can then be born into the universes God made with his sons and daughters....maybe.
Then go read the original story as written by the Sumerians and it will make plenty of sense.
I don't remember any reference to the Fall of Man in the cuneiform text; the Sumerians were pictured handing over the tree of life instead of forbidding it.
but I'll check again.
Now look at this learning...that is being denied because of bent minds on profits from detramental sources...which endanger all living things...including human life...and putting that as their foundation for their system...and stopping or oprressing, or prohibiting certain plants from being sown, and used in a Good light.,,which solves the Green house gass problem, makes food, cleans the waters through transpiration, makes the atmosphere, and ozone, and is tied to the sun, and stores energy as heat...to climatize the enviroments in which it is sown!
Also it makes holy ground, when the sower is sinless...thus the lands are made sinless, or come into Judgment by the sower or sowers who sows it...
Now this plant has attributes, which are industious...and it is fruitful...and it belongs in nature somewhere...if not everywhere...and it also works well in Hydroponic systems which do not need to be rested because no soil is used...so the law of the lands...if for the lands, things grown on that land contains earth....But hydroponics has no Earth...and thus we do not need to rest that system...which in turn makes more soils...so we can make more lands abundantly giving that are not!
And it does not stop there...oh no...more worlds to make...and that starts with making this system abundantly Giving...and in a sinless way...offer up some to God...so he can seed new worlds...amen?
Now maybe that is what Abel and Cain ment to do?...but Cain omitted some plants from his offering....and Abel omitted nothing...from what he had.
Cain judged plants as being some Good, and some bad or weeds....when God said they are all Good.
See where things went slanted with Cain?..Cain holds back something from God...for himself?....that is why God favours Abels offerings more...
But then Cain commits murder of his own Brother.....a sin....ontop of a sin...
Ah ha..then Moses finds the plant again as the burning Bush on the side of a mountain, and recieves the laws to gain sinlessness!!...and then Jesus comes trying to get them to see their error with IDOLATRY, and breaking of the commandments!!!...and they Kill him for saying it is all Good when taken with thanksgiving"...meaning of course what God made....and there is no money listed in what God made....God is a God of living things...So plants are Good..when used in the right way...and if no right way is made for them...and we oppress those who Grow them, and make wars, and other attrosities, so that detramentals take hold, and cost us more..and we gain constant death because of those sins constantly being made in the world because of something people don't believe in, and believe in doing the opposite of (tending and keeping) to that Prime Directive God asked we do...then who is in the wrong?
Acts 3:21 and 10:15 when the line is drawn to Genesis1:11, 1:12, 1;29, 2:15, 9:3 and Rev 17:17..should of taken ADAM and EVE a second to do...but they did not do what God asked of them...and here we are some time after...and after being forewarned by Christ...2000 years still doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons....and where is a second world born of this one???
Still falling...eventually it will all start dying off, and burning...and then it might be too late, if not already....and look, they still denie the plants liberty...and continue to burn fossil fuels mindlessly, and destroying the ozone, so the suns harmful UV light scorches the earth more.....while not to many are sowing those seeds anymore for God....they are now using them for profits and gains in that IDOLIC system...Which totally Goes the wrong way....
Now...We can see...and we can study the book with open eyes...and relive the past, by putting it back, and seeing what God ment by it being at the center of the Garden Principle...putting it back where it belongs without profaning anything!...and trying real hard to do it for the right reasons...and make a industry that utilizes all the attributes, feeds the hungry for free, and the animals and insects...and maybe once that is done...and we all comply to God, and stop sinning...we can then be born into the universes God made with his sons and daughters....maybe.
thank you Sir Les for your responses! enlightening.
I don't remember any reference to the Fall of Man in the cuneiform text; the Sumerians were pictured handing over the tree of life instead of forbidding it.
but I'll check again.
The original story of the Fall of Man is an argument between Enlil and the serpent "god" Enki.
Enki wants to give humans knowledge; Enlil doesn't want humans to have knowledge; Enki gives humans knowledge anyway; Enlil gets upset.
The Hebrews took that story and rewrote it with Yahoo as Enlil and "the accuser" (satan) as Enki and then of course portrayed the Enki the serpent "god" as a serpent.
For the Hebrew rendition, there is a great deal more to the story than what is being taught in Sunday School.
I rely on one particular author: Thomas L. Thompson (Mythic Past) who explains the story as seen, viewed, understood, etc. by the ancient Hebrews.
Essentially, we have a story that allegorically depicts the world as of the times the writer was living, not some prehistoric, pre-dawn, or just-post-creation world.
God is a buffoon, which is how the writer depicts the current thinking of the day. Not too far off from a number of people here who try to debunk the existence of God based on inaction, injustice, and an all-around sucky world.
The serpent (which does have a lot of Enki overtones) first represents knowledge and creation. After all, it was Enki who convinced Mammu to create the first humans in the first place. It is not really a Satan in terms of modern theology; althought, since the word "satan" means adversary, Enki was quite the adversary against his half-brother (and true heir of Earth) Enlil.
It is thought that the "original sin" was nothing more than mankind's ability to procreate. According the Sumerian writings, that fact alone pissed off Enlil to no end. And when he finally acquiesced to mankind's presence, he made sure that mankind would have a very short life span.
Another underlying theme of the Eden story is the ascendancy of the male over the female. At the time of this story's writing, Judaism was in a no-holds-barred war against the religion of the Goddess. Women were used to holding high offices. Matriarchal lineage was followed, meaning that children took the name of their mothers, not their fathers. Promuscuity was also encouraged.
The Eden story supports such ridiculous statements in the New Testament that refer to Man begetting Woman, instead of the other way around. Thus, the Eden story is really giving us a glimpse of the titanic struggle between the outnumbered but ardent supporters of a male god trying to eradicate the religion of the Goddess.
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