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The Calvinists had this theory of predestination. That your salvation, or lack of it, was decided before you were even born. My question is--these people were some of the most severe, most religious people on the planet in their time--why?!
If your final judgement has already been decided, then what does it matter WHAT you do? You could be the best person, yet still be sent for perfidy. You could be the worst person imaginable, yet still saved. What was the impetus for being "moral" in this type of viewpoint?
I understand that, Phil. But if your actions have no bearing on your eventual fate, then what does it matter? I somewhat believe that anyhow, that my actual actions have no bearing on my fate. I still try to be fairly decent, but I'm human.
I understand that, Phil. But if your actions have no bearing on your eventual fate, then what does it matter? I somewhat believe that anyhow, that my actual actions have no bearing on my fate. I still try to be fairly decent, but I'm human.
Well, I was thinking it mattered only to the originators and followers of those particular religions. Also, I'm going on old knowledge about predestination - I haven't really studied this concept formally in over 30 years.
Personally I like to think of this life as the only one I'll ever be cognizant of, and act accordingly. I also think there's some form of karma surrounding us throughout this life, though, so I'm careful what I put out there; not because some religion tells me to, but because basically I feel a pull to the positive side. For me, the principle of the Yin/Yang has always had precedence over anything else, so I suppose I'm a little bit country AND a little bit rock 'n' roll - I sin, then I hurry and balance it out with good deeds.
The Calvinists had this theory of predestination. That your salvation, or lack of it, was decided before you were even born. My question is--these people were some of the most severe, most religious people on the planet in their time--why?!
If your final judgement has already been decided, then what does it matter WHAT you do? You could be the best person, yet still be sent for perfidy. You could be the worst person imaginable, yet still saved. What was the impetus for being "moral" in this type of viewpoint?
As a Christian, but as one who thoroughly rejects the doctrine of predestination, it seems to me that there would be no "impetus for being moral." However, I have had people who do believe in predestination explain that those who haved been destined for salvation are just naturally moral. In essence, they just don't seem to be able to help themselves. Of course I've never talked to anyone who has claimed that God has decided to damn him. Funny that those folks are always among the saved.
The Calvinists had this theory of predestination. That your salvation, or lack of it, was decided before you were even born. My question is--these people were some of the most severe, most religious people on the planet in their time--why?!
That was actually Martin Luther.
Basically as you've explained it, that is correct. Your fate has been predetermined, ie "pre-destined" and there's nothing you can do to change it.
If Mother Teresa was predestined for Hell, then that is where she now is, and if Hitler had been predestined for Heaven, then that is where he now is.
You have to view it in in the context of the times. The basic thrust of the Reformation was "indulgences." That allowed people to "pay" for their sins with money, and to even pay in advance for sins they would commit during the weekend orgy.
It also included the idea that "good works" could negate sins, and of course instead of actually performing "good works" many were just paying others to perform "good works" in their name (another form of indulgence).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar
If your final judgement has already been decided, then what does it matter WHAT you do? You could be the best person, yet still be sent for perfidy. You could be the worst person imaginable, yet still saved. What was the impetus for being "moral" in this type of viewpoint?
It was based on the possibility that when you are "judged" you might be given a reprieve.
I take it that it doesn't make much sense to you, well, it doesn't make much sense to me either, but I think it's a good example of a reactionary philosophy.
If you are a Christian you can just not escape the doctorine of predestination. It's throughout the entire bible. The understanding of this concept is another thing entirely. It's very hard to put into a nutshell but I will give it try.
The first thing that needs to be understood about the concept of Christian salvation is that it is not of works in any sense. In other words, no matter how moral, good living, honest, etc etc you are none of these things are going to save you from God's judgement.
Faith alone in Christ alone is what the bible teaches as the only way to heaven. Now as the bible teaches in many places, the things of God are nonsense to the Natural man and he can in no way either believe them or understand them. Faith is a gift of God givin to an undeserving person by the soverign will of God. This gift we refer to as being "born again". There is nothing a man can do or not do to gain any merit with God. Becoming a Christian is all of Him and none of us.
In the vast numbers of humanity that have ever existed God has chosen a people unto Himself. These people are "Predestined" to become the children of God. The bible is very clear on this point and uses that exact terminology. It also says that God "Adopts" us as His children.
So, not only are we predestined for glory but we are chosen out of that vast sea of humanity for God's "Special grace" upon us.
This doctorine offends many people for different reasons. The number one reason is that it hurts our pride to think we are totally helpless and unable to choose on our own to become a Christian or not. It also causes problems for people who think for some reason or another that God owes us something just because we exist. God does owe us something and that something is justice. The large majority of humanity will recieve it and a small remnent of humanity will recieve "Grace". Those recieving Grace are those predistined to be in Him, {Jesus} before the foundation of the world" as it is stated so clearly in God's word.
I can choose whether or not to be a Christian, and I have chosen not to, partly because of such doctrinaire beliefs held by at least some Christians.
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Of course I've never talked to anyone who has claimed that God has decided to damn him. Funny that those folks are always among the saved. 
