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...it seems to tell us that no matter how we behave, no matter what we carelessly mutter in our mortal lives, we're pretty much universally guaranteed an entrance into heaven. god loves us all, no matter what, He not being the vengeful type.
Huzzah! In addition, when our parents were making sure we were adequately protected, they may well have baptized us, back when we could not fight back. As was I, under the glowing auspices of none less that the High English Church;
(the glowing sounds of an angel's chorus rises in the background...)
Then, I became a member of the United Church of Canada. BTW, in order of membership and "strength" up there, there's the #1 RC Church, then the United Church and then a close third-place; The Anglican Church of Canada. Pretty tight company, eh? I feel all warm inside!
So tell me, Universalist Christians here, are we safe no matter how we act? (PS: obviously you can only answer this if you're a Universalist. The other side, whatever it's called, will of course tell us we're doomed unless we practice total devotion for the rest of our days, on bended knees (ouch! that's gotta hurt!) to atone for our serious rifts from, and nastiness towards, organized religion to date).
I await your answers, impatiently, because after all, none of us knows exactly when we might g..........
I usually hear the word 'Universalism' as pertaining to religion to mean that everyone, literally anyone from any background or part of the Earth as being offered salvation (or even mundane membership) in a specific religious community.
In other words, religions like Christianity, Islam, and, to some extent, Judaism (especially Reform) are Universalist. Anyone can join and all purport to hold a 'universal', non-exclusive truth.
This is in contrast to folk religions that are specific to certain ethnic groups such as Shinto (Japanese), Hinduism (Indian), Native American religions, Asatru (Northern European), and, to some extent, Judaism (certain ultra-conservative sects).
That is my understanding of the term 'Universalism' as it pertains to religion, anyway.
Given that God is infinitely good, infinitely just and infinitely merciful, how then can the sins performed in one lifetime on Earth, even if we live to be Methuselah old, be worthy of an eternity in Hell with no further possibility for redemption? Eternity is eternity; if you were sentenced to eternal Hell from the beginning of creation (6000 years ago or 4 billion, makes no difference here), you would still be no closer to being done today than you were at the start. What sins can justify that?
OK, for argument's sake let's take the view that Hell is the logical consequence of sin, which is man's willful rejection of God. In this case, God doesn't condemn you to anything, but rather you reject him through sin and choose the only other alternative: Hell. Still, wouldn't a God who's truly infinitely merciful check in every couple million years or so to see if you were still satisfied with your choice?
Questions like these are what left me cold on the idea of eternal Hell/Heaven and a reward/punishment based afterlife. If there is a God running the show, we're not getting the whole picture.
Full disclosure: I was raised Presbyterian but I'm now sort of a semi-gnostic Buddhist if I'm anything. I've studied and read a lot, but I'm not a Biblical scholar so it's entirely possible that I'm missing something. If I have, feel free to share.
...it seems to tell us that no matter how we behave, no matter what we carelessly mutter in our mortal lives, we're pretty much universally guaranteed an entrance into heaven. god loves us all, no matter what, He not being the vengeful type.
Well I am not Christian Universalist (or Christian for that matter), but if you paid any attention, you'd notice that a lot of Evangelical Christianity shouts from the rooftops that salvation is not by works. You can be the world greatest Satan and still get to heaven, as long as you also accept Jesus. Or you can live like saint and get to Hell because missionaries failed to show up. And at least Universalism says that you will have to repent from all your sins before entering heaven and that there will be consequences for sinning (although not eternal ones) , which is something Evangelicals deny.
So I don't understand why you single out Universalists for attack. There are far, far more toxic strains of Christianity out there.
He said:
"I don't understand why you single out Universalists for attack."
Attack? Attack you say? I didn't get that from my post, no indeed! I'm just confused by Universalism, and hope to gain some useful insight. Again, and in a single sentence:
Universalism seems to guarantee all of us safe passage into heaven.
I do mean ALL of us, even us godless atheists, no matter how we've acted. We whom God designed and manufactured in His image, after all.
Sorry for reading things into your posts that I now see weren't really there.
First of all I am deist, not Universalist of any type.
Well there are multiple types of universalism.
- Christian universalism is idea that everyone will eventually get to heaven (some kicking and screaming). You are free to live any way you want but there are going to be consequences which may be really severe (but not eternal).
- In other senses it is an idea that you may go to heaven even if you honestly follow other religions, or that all religions have degree of truth in them etc...
- Christian universalism is idea that everyone will eventually get to heaven (some kicking and screaming). You are free to live any way you want but there are going to be consequences which may be really severe (but not eternal).
- In other senses it is an idea that you may go to heaven even if you honestly follow other religions, or that all religions have degree of truth in them etc...
Yeah, that's pretty much true. I'm a Unitarian Universalist, but more because I'm a member of the local UU church. Specifically I call myself a Pagan, and there's nothing Christian about that (well, historically speaking...). Our particular congregation is about 1/5 Christian. I believe most of them would probably fall in the "all religions have a degree of truth in them" camp. For that matter, I'd bet many of our congregation would say the same. Except for our atheists!
And I think there's something to be said for honestly following any belief, or non-belief. In my book, honesty counts for something, even if it doesn't in any afterlife. I'd rather be slapped for honesty than rewarded for a lie. Wouldn't a god see through a lie anyway?
I wonder what the Mormons call their practice of posthumous baptism? Do they believe that to be a type of universal salvation, even though its permission is not required?
I'm also a Unitarian Universalist, but for me personally, that name is an old relic of our fellowship's history and does not reflect any doctrines of the church, because the modern day Unitarian Universalist church has no doctrines, only some shared values (democracy, respect for the interweb of existence, etc). I am certainly not a Unitarian, in that I do not believe in the unity or oneness of god (I don't believe there is any god). And I am not a Universalist as I don't believe everyone will be saved because I don't believe that there is anything to be saved from and I don't believe that there will be an afterlife.
I think rifleman really wanted to hear from those people who believe everyone will be saved, or go to a blissful afterlife.
Mormons would not call their "baptism for the dead" a type of universal salvation. Mormons do not believe everyone will go to what Christians call heaven. For Mormons there are Three Degrees of Glory and an Outer Darkness. In the highest degree of glory (celestial), one can live with God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. In the middle degree of glory (telestial), one can be visited by God the Son and Holy Ghost. In the lowest degree of glory (terrestrial), one can only enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost. In Outer Darkness, one is completely separated from god. Baptism is the gateway to the celestial kingdom, and one must be baptized to enter, whether while one was alive or by proxy after death. However, a dead person still has the opportunity to accept or reject that proxy baptism, so no one is sent to the celestial kingdom against their will. I know all of this because I was Mormon for 30 years.
Attack? Attack you say? I didn't get that from my post, no indeed! I'm just confused by Universalism, and hope to gain some useful insight. Again, and in a single sentence:
Universalism seems to guarantee all of us safe passage into heaven.
I do mean ALL of us, even us godless atheists, no matter how we've acted. We whom God designed and manufactured in His image, after all.
Sooo...what am I missing?
Hi rifleman I believe that God will reconsile all things to himself. All men will be saved. It is not safe passage into heaven. All men will be judged ,if not in this life than in the next. If you are Christ's elect you will judge yourself and repent and be converted. This is not easy.
Look at all the apostle Paul went through, Beaten more than once, shipwreaked, jailed, scorned, and had a demon placed inside him that would buffet him to keep him humble. Most of us can not comprehend what he had to endue and many of us could not endure what he did.
Those who are not the elect will be reserrected and then will be judged and will repent and then be cleansed. It will not be pretty or easy for them. The will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. They will reap what they have sown and will learn rightousness but it will be a hard lesson but they all will repent and be cleansed.
Anyone who thinks that they can do what ever they want just waltz into heaven are in for a rude awakening. There will be a judgement and consquence for all we have done. Bit in the ens God will save all his children.
Well I am not Christian Universalist (or Christian for that matter), but if you paid any attention, you'd notice that a lot of Evangelical Christianity shouts from the rooftops that salvation is not by works. You can be the world greatest Satan and still get to heaven, as long as you also accept Jesus. Or you can live like saint and get to Hell because missionaries failed to show up. And at least Universalism says that you will have to repent from all your sins before entering heaven and that there will be consequences for sinning (although not eternal ones) , which is something Evangelicals deny.
So I don't understand why you single out Universalists for attack. There are far, far more toxic strains of Christianity out there.
Wrong! Read James 2. The only true faith is obedient faith.
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Down boy!
). Our particular congregation is about 1/5 Christian. I believe most of them would probably fall in the "all religions have a degree of truth in them" camp. For that matter, I'd bet many of our congregation would say the same. Except for our atheists! 
