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I believe the Bible is a great book to live one's life by, however
the Bible was written by MEN, human beings, and I tend to be very sceptical, due to Interpretations of dreams, and visions and Interpretating the Bible, hence all our different man made religions.
I believe in a God, but not according to man's Interpretation
Man is always led by greed, sex, power....and while there have been some very wise men who lived they're life according to they're Gods, there are few and far between, which has been proven by all the recent sex scandals with Catholic Priests.
No man/human being has the right to say, Your sins are forgiven and no man has the right to say, I cannot commune in church unless I join they're religion and no man has the right to set himself up as a God, b/c we are not Gods, we are human beings and there is no religious man on the face of this earth that can be celebate...maybe a few...however, men in particular are very weak when it comes to sex. And I cannot believe all these years, people have yet to figure that out. And that's what I mean by religions stagnating intellectual growth...we live our lives like a story book, we all invent for ourselves, behind some invisible protective plastic bubble away from the rest of the world, called, Idealology....never progressing, and making the very same mistakes over and over again.
I believe that man made religions have stagnated human beings from an intellectual progression....
I also believe if you look back and study history, you would feel the same way I do, as at one point in time, the Church which was lead by priests who were human beings, who had more power then any government on earth...were responsible for chastising women and burning them at the stake for they're opinions and they actually feared women who were wise.
They were also responsbile for literally trying to wipe out the Knights of the Templar, and many other religions that were not in line with they're own, and they kept the so called Bible from the human race, as the only persons who were allowed to read the Bible then, was them, which raises a huge flag. So what did they release and not release as the Bible?
Priest back then were no different from our priests now, very manipulative and corrupt....and politically led...some of them are great people, but most of them are led by the power of they're position and I just cannot go along with they're concept and Ideas of dictating to others when they themselves are mere human beings.
You can quote the Bible as much as you want, and as you can see each and every religion has they're own Interpretation of it...and there are so many parts of the Bible missing....
The biggest reason for my decission about the Bible is this...
I've studied different religions my entire life, and I guestion them hugely b/c each and every one of them deem they're religion, THE RELIGION?
I've belonged to many different demoninations and studied they're religions and find religions to be hugely political....
and like the Bible states, none of us will have all the answers until the day we meet our God....leaving the whole idea of the Bible open....
what it comes down to is this...
because man is lead by power, greed, money and sex, I'm sorry, but I don't believe it...and there is proof of prehistoric dinesours, but there has not been any proof found of Adam and Eve, of the Ark...of Noah's Ark, and so forth...
I do believe if all the things in the Bible were true, God would have left behind something that states so...
Yet, there are Pyramids, which no one can prove how they were built and who designed them....really....
When I was a kid, in Cat class, I asked our Priest, why if Jesus was God's son, didn't he give him the divine human experience of knowing true love between a man and a woman? Meaning, passion, sex, and touch, plus experiencing that connection between a man and woman. I was told to sit down and shut up. But that as a young child bothered me...?
I also questioned where exactly was the Garden of Eden and why was there no proof of Adam and Eve and Cain and Able...and then growing up my parents, never discussed sex with us, it was all so hush hush and like it was something evil and dirty never to be talked about?????? Geeze Luise, sex is human, it's an instinct and natural....if it wouldn't be for sex, we would not be here. This idea that our kids shouldn't be having sex, why if you feel that way, then open your eyes and realize, they to are only human, and instead of trying to inforce them into not having sex, teach them safe sex, b/c they're are way to many babies being born to children who should never be parents.
Religions stagnate growth, is a form of control and are a very primitive form of fairy tale beliefs....
Do I believe in a God? Yes indeed I do, but other then that, no one knows for certain.
You have contradicted yourself in this first sentence here and by the way the Bible is the inspired word of God through prophets
Lots flight from Sodom, in the course of which Lot's wife looked back and was turned to a pillar of salt, and then the seduction by his daughters so that they could bear children...hmmmm, the seduction by his daughters....and yet, Lot was a righteous man?
Both Christians and Islam revere Lot as a righteous perosn of God. The Biblical stories of drunkenness and incest attributed to Lot are absent in the Qur'an. In Islamic Tradition, they are rejected by Muslims and Lot is venerated as a Prophet of Islam. Christians are reminded by Apostle Peter that Lot was a righteous man?
And then we have Muslims who actually believe it's ok to murder others, including children, for they're God???? Grrrrrr, and they are conditioned just as we are, from little on up to believe in they're Bible...we are conditioned to believe this by our parents and other adults.
And then of course, to explain death...and yet...we have a huge huge problem in this country with child sexual abuse, and abuse, yet, I never see any church step forward and take a stand in stopping this by preaching that this is so wrong and we want our laws changed so that sexual abuse becomes a federal crime by which those criminals are put away for good..b/c child molesters are not rehabilited, it is a very low 1% rehabilitation. Child molesters are a menace to society, and worse then animals, as they prey on young children....yet, what church steps forward? What Christians have stepped forward, yet, Churches are a huge political financial contributer in our country today? They to are a special interest group....
As I said, it's a great book to live your life by, however?
You have contradicted yourself in this first sentence here and by the way the Bible is the inspired word of God through prophets
no I haven't....your post is a perfect example of how people misinterpret words, readings, and come up with they're very own ideas...
what I said was, it is in fact a great book to live one's life by, I never said it was the inspired word of God through Prophets...I question that...but that doesn't mean it's not a great book to live one's life by....and I also said we all interpret words visions and dreams differently...
Human beings are always searching for something more powerful then themselves, and yet, when times are tough we are the first to kill and go crazy looting and stealing.
I used to write poetry that was spiritually driven, and it's amazing how when some people read my poetry, they claimed it was sexual or had sexual overtones...we read into things how we think....and how are the profits any different...they were only mere human beings who interpeted they're dreams and visions to be from God, maybe, maybe not....who am I to know...however, I bet you any amount of money, today, if anyone claimed to have a vision from God, we as a society would have them locked up, deeming them crazy...
I think the Bible was written by the Priests to control people, human beings need rules to govern them, otherwise there would be complete chaos.
When we read the words of others, or listen to others speaking, we all come up with our own different interpretations due to our own characters and what we want to hear or see...
and especially Christains are so afraid to consider any thing else, it doesn't mean your denoucing God, but many Leaders of the Bible from the very beginning have used scare tactics to get you to follow them...it's time we all wake up and smell the roses....I'm not saying God doesn't exist...someone or something had to create all this perfection, however, if he does exist, it is surely not in the same way that men have led us to believe...of that I'm certain....
Men lie to gain control, power, money, and no man is free of sin, no man is a God, and no priest on the face of this earth, has the right to deem himself so powerful as the Pope does, especially of such a pagen man made religion. If I were still Catholic, I'd walk out of that church screaming bloody murder that those who are guilty of abusing a child be put away for life...and I'd refuse to fund that church again...period...and I can't believe those who are still following that religion? I can't, there is no excuse for it....and it makes me really sad, to see the tons of Catholics still funding that Church....which says, to me, your ignoring the fact, that a crime was committed, and to continue to ignore this, makes us, just as much the sin...we are so primitive in our way of thinking, honestly....? I just can't understand society today? The mafia goes out and kills people, whole families, however, they do go to church every week?????
And the muslims, believe it's ok to murder someone if you deem them evil, but they actually believe it's ok to murder thousands of people????? And we have the nerve to critize them? How are we any different, really...we go to war, and kill people, b/c of our beliefs, however, are we always right, I think not, not to mention, lead astray by our own governments?
We are no better then anyone else, yet, in the name of our religions we deem ourselves so, and put ourselves above any other religion? Sheeesh...I mean, it's down right common sense...and to seriously study history....
if you want answers they will come to you, but you have to do your homework, and not sit back and think that "oh, if I pray to God, he'll fix it"? No he won't. God gives us the gift of life, and a brain...and choice...and from they're on, we're on our own, and learn only from our own choices, and questions....
and we hate for anyone to even suggest we might be wrong?????
Last edited by cremebrulee; 03-25-2011 at 12:05 PM..
Only got a couple of minutes here but I will try to answer some of your questions. One thing you are missing is the bible is not a literal book it is a spiritual book.
TY for replying - I'll try be gentle
Quote:
1.) When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil they did die that day, they died in the spirit, and though them physical death ,which occures later, entered the world.
This is the standard response I was expecting. The problem here arises immediately, what is to be taken literally and what allegorically. I understand the concept as that is how I too did my apologetic gymnastics.
Quote:
2.) Again spiritual rather then physical Cain said he was driven from the face of God and spiritually was a vagabond and fugative. The fact that he physicalt married and had children in no way negates the pain he went though.
OK Spiritual but then again this account has a plural meaning because the land of Nod was in fact a real place. I do not agree with your premise though, cane was marked so that no one could take vengeance upon him.
Could it merely have been an accident and he did not come clean, the storyline really does not fit in with how brothers typically treat each other, they may fight yes but killing out of a fit of jealousy seems a bit far fetched.
It is fair to assume they were mid teens when this happened, we do not know. The concept of offering being so different is stupid anyway, one tilled the land, the other was a herder, both offered up offerings and yet prior to that, no law of offering has been established The laws came much later. What was the purpose of the offering? Why was god such a douchbag to not accept a grain offering, later in the introduction of the laws, grain becomes an suitable offering, usually referred to as meat in the KJV.
The connect-the-missing-dots game suggests the offering of Abel was symbolic or the lamb of god but reading the story in context there absolutely no reason for god being more pleased with Abel over Cain's offering.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Then god makes matters worse by asking Cain why he is pissed off instead of explaining to him and us why the difference in respect.
We call this an absurdity
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Here it is almost if god is taunting Cain, He still has no idea what he did wrong, suggests that if he does well it will all be hunky dorie and then the warning if he does not sin will rule over him. In my book that is a self fulfilling prophesy and a curse.
Quote:
Alot of the other stuff you state is just literary generalites, Like if I was some where on hour and fifty minutes I would say I was there a couple of hours. And Issac's desendants when taken spiritually not literal is not the jew but all that follow Christ, which in the end is all of us. Got to go now will try to get back later.
So where ever we find discrepancies, it has to be seen spiritually, can we apply that same logic to the 100 or so fulfilled prophesies that prove the bible is true? And jesus is in fact the messiah?
This spiritual argument does nothing to convince the unbeliever. They are to read the bible and through it, find god. If they do this, they find a megalomaniac, bipolar human-like god that has mutiple personalities and probably suffers from visions of grandeur.
Can you blame any one for questioning these inconsistencies?
This is only the OT and the beginning. I too read it and through indoctrination from sermons, margin references, saw the connect where actually there is none.
Online bibles are pretty clinical as you do not have the schoefield cross references on which much of the modern evangelical doctrines are based. Matthew Henry's commentaries tend to contradict schoefield's so we come to the obvious question who is right, these are recognized scholars that did not have the benefit of PC's like we do today.
The original texts did not have these connect-the-missing-dots commentaries nor chapter and verse numbers. You may be surprised to find out, that 99% of apologetics are based solely on these pre-printed margin references, there is no uber spiritual way to interpret, it all comes from the references that in fact tell you how to interpret. Ever owned a catholic bible? I do, it has no cross references like the KJV, there footnotes that merely explain a particular verse phrase like a mini concordance.
Most of you are following another man's interpretation of scripture. I am sure if you ordered Rod Parsley's version of the KJV, it will differ greatly from the standard KJV, your study bibles that already are tailored to guide you to a predetermined outcome and interpretation.
I never used any of these in my studies and used multiple translations, maybe that is why I did not come to the mainstream conclusions.
Like I said elsewhere, I really dug deep.
Now that you know what I know, go check it out, the printed versions, see the differences.
You miss the pint entirely, Moshe(sp?) himself is to fulfill the prophesy and that never happened. All you have is a Zionist counterfeit.
No buddy, it is you that is twisting seems I have to go get that data after all, I hope it is still online somewhere
NO I understand perfectly the 1000 years, it is to do with the failed return NOT the duration of the creation days. You are just inventing eschatology on the fly. I have not forgotten this stuff so stop trying to infer I don;t know or understand what I am talking of. OK?
Of course you are not, that prophesy failed, no one wants to be associated with failure.
Wow, you really seem to miss everything. The return of the Jewish people to Israel, and Jerusalem from a worldwide exile (IS REQUIRED FIRST). And that part of the prophecy is still happening. No man of God or anyone else, will appear until that first part of the prophecy is fulfilled. And how many times will the Jewish people have to return to Israel from a worldwide exile in order to please you? Do you think God is going to carry all the Jewish people on His back in order to get them back to Israel?
I did not invent the 1,000 years. And clearly the Bible speaks of it. And if one considers the time Christ died on the cross which was about 33 A.D. and adds two of Gods 1,000 year days. It brings us to the year 2033. Thus God's third day would begin in the year 2034. And the God of the Old Testament tells us, that it will be on the third day when God will raises His people up. And if you recall, it was Jesus who told us in the New Testament, that the Generation that saw the fig tree shoot forth it branches, would not pass away until all end prophecies would be fulfilled. In the year 2034, the generation that was born in the year 1948, the time of Israels rebirth would be 84 years old. Two seperate time references, yet both prophecies colliding with each other in the future. And of course for these prophecies to be really valid. We would first have to see great unrest in the Middle East. We would have to see Jews returning from a worldwide exile, and in control of Israel, and Jerusalem.
Do your really think this is all happening by chance or accident?
Last edited by Campbell34; 03-25-2011 at 04:11 PM..
This is the standard response I was expecting. The problem here arises immediately, what is to be taken literally and what allegorically. I understand the concept as that is how I too did my apologetic gymnastics.
OK Spiritual but then again this account has a plural meaning because the land of Nod was in fact a real place. I do not agree with your premise though, cane was marked so that no one could take vengeance upon him.
Could it merely have been an accident and he did not come clean, the storyline really does not fit in with how brothers typically treat each other, they may fight yes but killing out of a fit of jealousy seems a bit far fetched.
It is fair to assume they were mid teens when this happened, we do not know. The concept of offering being so different is stupid anyway, one tilled the land, the other was a herder, both offered up offerings and yet prior to that, no law of offering has been established The laws came much later. What was the purpose of the offering? Why was god such a douchbag to not accept a grain offering, later in the introduction of the laws, grain becomes an suitable offering, usually referred to as meat in the KJV.
The connect-the-missing-dots game suggests the offering of Abel was symbolic or the lamb of god but reading the story in context there absolutely no reason for god being more pleased with Abel over Cain's offering.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Then god makes matters worse by asking Cain why he is pissed off instead of explaining to him and us why the difference in respect.
We call this an absurdity
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Here it is almost if god is taunting Cain, He still has no idea what he did wrong, suggests that if he does well it will all be hunky dorie and then the warning if he does not sin will rule over him. In my book that is a self fulfilling prophesy and a curse.
So where ever we find discrepancies, it has to be seen spiritually, can we apply that same logic to the 100 or so fulfilled prophesies that prove the bible is true? And jesus is in fact the messiah?
This spiritual argument does nothing to convince the unbeliever. They are to read the bible and through it, find god. If they do this, they find a megalomaniac, bipolar human-like god that has mutiple personalities and probably suffers from visions of grandeur.
Can you blame any one for questioning these inconsistencies?
This is only the OT and the beginning. I too read it and through indoctrination from sermons, margin references, saw the connect where actually there is none.
Online bibles are pretty clinical as you do not have the schoefield cross references on which much of the modern evangelical doctrines are based. Matthew Henry's commentaries tend to contradict schoefield's so we come to the obvious question who is right, these are recognized scholars that did not have the benefit of PC's like we do today.
The original texts did not have these connect-the-missing-dots commentaries nor chapter and verse numbers. You may be surprised to find out, that 99% of apologetics are based solely on these pre-printed margin references, there is no uber spiritual way to interpret, it all comes from the references that in fact tell you how to interpret. Ever owned a catholic bible? I do, it has no cross references like the KJV, there footnotes that merely explain a particular verse phrase like a mini concordance.
Most of you are following another man's interpretation of scripture. I am sure if you ordered Rod Parsley's version of the KJV, it will differ greatly from the standard KJV, your study bibles that already are tailored to guide you to a predetermined outcome and interpretation.
I never used any of these in my studies and used multiple translations, maybe that is why I did not come to the mainstream conclusions.
Like I said elsewhere, I really dug deep.
Now that you know what I know, go check it out, the printed versions, see the differences.
I believe you are the type of person with a high grade of intelligence that has a lot of knowledge on certain subjects but too much knowledge, especially dealing with the Holy Bible, if there is not a spiritual conviction or love for the Lord then it is just plain arrogance. Believe me,I have seen and heard it, one can explain scripture very well but you don't see the love for the Lord as all they are trying to do is to impress others with their prodigious amount of knowledge.
I believe you are the type of person with a high grade of intelligence that has a lot of knowledge on certain subjects but too much knowledge, especially dealing with the Holy Bible, if there is not a spiritual conviction or love for the Lord then it is just plain arrogance. Believe me,I have seen and heard it, one can explain scripture very well but you don't see the love for the Lord as all they are trying to do is to impress others with their prodigious amount of knowledge.
Yes, when it comes to the bible and religion, too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. ....Reason is the enemy of faith. When it comes to faith and the bible it is better to remain ignorant than to see the real truth, otherwise your faith will crumble.
I believe you are the type of person with a high grade of intelligence that has a lot of knowledge on certain subjects but too much knowledge, especially dealing with the Holy Bible, if there is not a spiritual conviction or love for the Lord then it is just plain arrogance. Believe me,I have seen and heard it, one can explain scripture very well but you don't see the love for the Lord as all they are trying to do is to impress others with their prodigious amount of knowledge.
The return of the Jewish people to Israel, and Jerusalem from a worldwide exile (IS REQUIRED FIRST). And that part of the prophecy is still happening.
So if that hasn't yet happened, the prophecy has not been fulfilled has is? It could fail completely at any time and for many reasons. So you can stop quoting the State of Israel as a 'fulfilled prophecy'.
I believe you are the type of person with a high grade of intelligence that has a lot of knowledge on certain subjects but too much knowledge, especially dealing with the Holy Bible, if there is not a spiritual conviction or love for the Lord then it is just plain arrogance. Believe me,I have seen and heard it, one can explain scripture very well but you don't see the love for the Lord as all they are trying to do is to impress others with their prodigious amount of knowledge.
Yeah, I know the adage of knowledge puffs up but love edifies. You may want to look that up.
I really was not aware that intelligence can be graded.
Anyhow, for the umpteenth time, I am an ex-christian, I was one for 30 years, what can I say? they told me to study god's word and I did and I have a pretty good memory retention seeing I have not picked up a bible in over 5 years and still can remember most themes and stories. I know all the twists and spins and of course I defended them but realized when digging deeper this is not the way the cookie actually crumbled.
So by your measure, I should not have studied, I should merely have kept on with with my weekly koolaide rations?
Odd than even pastors were amazed at my proficiency in matter scriptural, I was seen as wise council yet I never let this get to my head. I was even told my true calling was that of a teacher, now unless I studied, I cannot imagine how folk would come to this conclusion.
Sadly, this never answered the burning questions I had, hell being one of them. When I decided to go into apologetics, I posed questions to some of the best on the web, their answers did not make sense, I could see their knowledge was far less superior to mine so I dug and dug. All the while adding to my knowledge but now also understanding the stuff behind the bible, cultural traditions, events, ancient politics, etc. Coming to the conclusion with all this knowledge that we have but a fabricated man-made god and religion, I had to be honest and toss it all.
So here I sit, cursed with a good memory, an atheist and what am I to do? Well I am certain there are many like me who are where I was. My experiences out of the madness is to show them there is nothing to fear in letting go.
After all, The xians will tell you to let go and let god. I say exactly the same thing, except the god is replaced by you/me/self.
There is life after death, the death that religion instills in folk.
Glory, it is good to be A L I V E !
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