kdbrich tries to prove creationism off-topic (atheist, quotes, God, verse)
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The first question: How do we know it could not have brought itself into existence? How can anything create itself if it doesn't exist to do so?
We know it is not infinitely old for 2 reasons.
1. If it has eternally existed, how many years have passed since then? It's impossible for an infinite number of years to pass. If we count back in time to the beginning...it had to have a point where it began.
2. If the universe has existed eternally, it would have entered into a state of entropy by now. Entropy is the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It basically says that things are falling apart. That hasn't happened yet. That tells us that the universe is still relatively young.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
Your reasoning is flawed. The universe can't have existed infinitely because we can't count that far? Because entropy in the universe is increasing, god did it? Both non sequiturs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
go back and re-read my post a few more times and you might understand what I said.
Is it possible for an infinite number of years to pass?
Is the universe in a state of entropy right now?
Both of the answers to the above questions point to the fact that this universe had a beginning.
1. Prove that infinity can't exist, or else you can't use that premise to prove anything else.
2. I am not a physicist and no expert on thermodynamics, but what I understand is that entropy is energy that cannot be used for work, and is always increasing in the universe. The universe is not in a "state of entropy" (which I think you mean equilibrium). Not sure how this proves a beginning of the universe...
Furthermore, if a beginning of the universe is proven, which it is not, it does not necessarily mean god did it.
I'm flattered that you feel the need to create a thread for me. Apparently it really bugs you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
1. Prove that infinity can't exist, or else you can't use that premise to prove anything else.
Define infinity.
To be "finite", according to dictionary.com, is " having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable."
So, to be INfinite would be to be "without bounds or limits".
How do you measure that? How do you pass through an infinite number of years? If time is infinite, then we had to have done the impossible--pass through an infinite number of years to get here.
Quote:
2. I am not a physicist and no expert on thermodynamics, but what I understand is that entropy is energy that cannot be used for work, and is always increasing in the universe. The universe is not in a "state of entropy" (which I think you mean equilibrium). Not sure how this proves a beginning of the universe...
Furthermore, if a beginning of the universe is proven, which it is not, it does not necessarily mean god did it.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics, entropy, states that things are generally moving toward a state of chaos. Energy is moving from usable to unusable. The fact that it has not completed that indicates that it had a beginning at some point.
If you accept the fact that the universe had a beginning, then we can move on to what caused that.
I'm flattered that you feel the need to create a thread for me. Apparently it really bugs you.
Don't get excited. It just isn't every day that someone so gifted with blindness comes along. Best to get some mileage out of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
Define infinity.
To be "finite", according to dictionary.com, is " having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable."
So, to be INfinite would be to be "without bounds or limits".
How do you measure that? How do you pass through an infinite number of years? If time is infinite, then we had to have done the impossible--pass through an infinite number of years to get here.
You don't measure it. It can't be measured. Much like atheistic patience. But there is nothing supernatural about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
The 2nd law of thermodynamics, entropy, states that things are generally moving toward a state of chaos. Energy is moving from usable to unusable. The fact that it has not completed that indicates that it had a beginning at some point.
If you accept the fact that the universe had a beginning, then we can move on to what caused that.
What if energy approaches entropy infinitely? If you are going to play the Oh My God! card of universal existence, might as well go all the way, right?
Don't get excited. It just isn't every day that someone so gifted with blindness comes along. Best to get some mileage out of you.
You don't measure it. It can't be measured. Much like atheistic patience. But there is nothing supernatural about that.
What if energy approaches entropy infinitely? If you are going to play the Oh My God! card of universal existence, might as well go all the way, right?
How could a finite measure of something continue on infinitely?
Standard answer: Aristotle's: it was only potentially so, so that the measure exists into boundless dimensions. For time, Aristotle is considered an indeterminist, and Lukasiewicz applied from his reasoning for his reasonable metaphysics the three valued indeterminist logical system.
Ok, I originally wrote that message for the other thread, so now it mixes together quotes from all over the place .
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
As for A being possible, have you ever observed spontaneous generation from nothing?
Virtual particles come to mind...
Anyway, because something has never been observed in scientific conditions it cannot possibly exist, but somehow God has a free pass?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
We've got 2 choices for where the universe came from. It was either caused, or it wasn't. If you've got a third, let me have it.
We know it could not have brought itself into existence, since that's impossible. That leaves the only other option--it was caused.
- We don't know that "it could not have brought itself into existence".
- It is possible that the question is meaningless. A popular hypothesis is that time can be viewed as having a beginning - the Big Bang. Asking what caused the Big Bang implies an event that occurred before the Big Bang, which would be impossible with this hypothesis. In the words of possibly Stephen Hawkins (I have seen the quote attributed to others), it would be like asking what is north of the North Pole.
- It is possible that time is completely cyclical - that the chain of causality forms a ring. By that reasoning, though we may have an illusion of time, it would be truer to say that every event on the chain happens "in the same instant" an infinite number of time.
- There is also the possibility that the universe didn't "come from" anything because it has always been there. I have seen your refutation of it, but once again you assume that God has a free pass.
- We don't know if there are other options, because science isn't that advanced yet. See Zeno's paradoxes.
(For those who didn't read the thread where I posted this first, it is an example of an apparent paradox that has baffled thinkers for generations before mathematics became well-organised enough to deal with it; nobody made the mistake of claiming "therefore God must exist to solve the problem".)
- And even if it was "caused", you're making the usual giant leap that it was caused by God - as opposed to "a (mindless) concentration of some form of energy that somehow manages to be outside our universe, but that somehow spilled in." Occam's razor has some hard work before him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
1. If it has eternally existed, how many years have passed since then? It's impossible for an infinite number of years to pass. If we count back in time to the beginning...it had to have a point where it began.
...but of course God existed for all eternity .
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
2. If the universe has existed eternally, it would have entered into a state of entropy by now. Entropy is the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It basically says that things are falling apart. That hasn't happened yet. That tells us that the universe is still relatively young.
...or that those laws are mistaken somehow. Yes, they are a fundamental part of physics, but right now physics is not close to explaining the origins of the universe, and much may change before we get there. Various alternative models have been proposed, though they are still mere hypothesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich
If you accept the fact that the universe had a beginning, then we can move on to what caused that.
Feel free to assume we do, I'm curious how you intend to prove the existence of God with such limited premises.
I'm flattered that you feel the need to create a thread for me. Apparently it really bugs you.
Define infinity.
To be "finite", according to dictionary.com, is " having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable."
So, to be INfinite would be to be "without bounds or limits".
How do you measure that? How do you pass through an infinite number of years? If time is infinite, then we had to have done the impossible--pass through an infinite number of years to get here.
The irony is you say infinite time is impossible (how you conclude this you have not said) but then you claim a God that is infinite. Still, tell me how you prove there can't be an infinite amount of time. Just saying "it's impossible" doesn't make it impossible.
Quote:
The 2nd law of thermodynamics, entropy, states that things are generally moving toward a state of chaos. Energy is moving from usable to unusable.
As far as I can see, this is a non sequitur. Please explain in detail WHY "The fact that it has not completed that indicates that it had a beginning at some point." Again, just saying it doesn't make it so.
Besides, you now have to prove that the universe is spatially finite. Entropy only applies in a closed system, which doesn't apply to a system without physical boundaries.
By the way, it's funny that you use the 2nd law of thermodynamics to prove a creator, when the 1st law states that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
Quote:
If you accept the fact that the universe had a beginning, then we can move on to what caused that.
You could call the big bang a beginning, but it's not necessarily the beginning of time... Just the beginning of the expansion of the universe.
I do not accept that it is proven that the universe had a beginning. But if it were proven, it does not mean god caused it. It's special pleading to say the universe has to be explained by a cause but that cause doesn't need a cause itself.
Actually I think that kdrich is correct about the universe having a beginning and this is generally recognized by scientists as about 14 billion years ago. Time itself came into existence when the big bang occurred. However, I don't think kdrich is right about the second law of thermodynamics. Creationists have distorted what that really means to promote their own point of view. Here's a link that explains it:
This information is really more useful in trying to understand something as mundane as the workings of a steam locomotive and really doesn't even have anything to do with biology.
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Because entropy in the universe is increasing, god did it? 
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