Simple Question.. and some Rambling! (paradise, grace, translation, hell)

[Mag3.14]

Those Christians out there... when you here of Muslims believing fully that Allah created the world, and that some day they will be rewarded with 72 virgins and a river of honey etc etc do you think that sounds nuts?

Here is where I stand. I have no problem with believing in God, as most Christians/Catholics/Muslims etc I know are good people. What I do have a problem with is Religion! God and Religion are two different things. To believe in a deity and behave in good moral ways is one thing, but to literally translate the bible, judge others by its merits, and want to bring those very standards into public ligislation is absurd.

My problem is that the whole point of democracy is that everyone is represented and everyone is free to make choices for themselves (provided they don't hurt others). Bringing Christian doctrine into debates like abortion rights/gay rights/stem cell research etc just displays the sheer ignorance and illogical thought that consumes most born again Christians. If we all lived by actual bible translation society would be unbearable.

Lets move forward, accept that believing in Adam and Eve, rejecting Evolution on grounds that it doesnt align with the bible, people rising from the dead, turning water into wine etc etc etc etc is just simply insanity. Simple point.. if Jesus really did have the power to perform miracles, why did he waste his time turning water into wine, feeding the 5,000 (what about the rest of the planet).. why not cure the coming of Aids, cancer, birth defects, poverty.. should I go on?

I know many church going people, and would always support their right to believe in God, but transferring that belief into the REAL world breeds an environment of non-tollerance, illogic, and a possible reversal of the rights provided in the US constitution.

Ponder.......

[Christian2003]

You raise alot of questions! First of all, our country was founded on Christian principals and beliefs (ie)The Ten Commandments. Our government buildings in DC are covered with Bible scripture, especially the Supreme Court building.

A Christian is not to judge other people (although some do!) God will judge all people at the last day, and yes all will be resurrected to face God to answer for their deeds in this life.

Christians believe the Bible is the unerring Word of God and that we should live by it. The Bible says that life begins at conception and that murder is wrong. Therefore we cannot support or condone abortion in any form as it is clearly murder. The Bible also condemns homosexuality as it does all sin. Sin is the transgression of God's law. God is holy and if one wants to live with God after this life, then one must be without sin as well. By nature no one is good, all humanity is morally bankrupt. That is why God came in the form of a man, Jesus. Not to cure aids or cancer, diseases are the result of sin. He came to overcome sin and to conquer death and hell. Jesus did that by living a life free of sin in any form. He didn't even have an unpure thought. No one else can live that kind of life by their own power.

You have a right to choose, but there are consequences for your choices. Choose to go your own way and die in your sins, or choose Jesus and live. Religion can't save anyone from God's judgement, only a relationship with Jesus Christ can do that. Believing in God doesn't get one to Heaven either, Satan knows there is a God and believes in Him but will be cast into the lake of fire.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by ian6479

Those Christians out there... when you here of Muslims believing fully that Allah created the world, and that some day they will be rewarded with 72 virgins and a river of honey etc etc do you think that sounds nuts?

Well, I wouldn't call them "nuts," because that would be impolite, but of those three examples you sited, I would disagree with two of them. I personally don't like honey, but to each his own.

Originally Posted by ian6479

My problem is that the whole point of democracy is that everyone is represented and everyone is free to make choices for themselves (provided they don't hurt others). Bringing Christian doctrine into debates like abortion rights/gay rights/stem cell research etc just displays the sheer ignorance and illogical thought that consumes most born again Christians. If we all lived by actual bible translation society would be unbearable.

Your disagreement seems to be with certain sects of fundamentalist Christians, but what you just described doesn't accurately represent religion in general, nor most sects of Christianity specifically.

Originally Posted by ian6479

Lets move forward, accept that believing in Adam and Eve, rejecting Evolution on grounds that it doesnt align with the bible,

Actually, that's backwards. Even science accepts that every single human being on this planet right now is descended from one woman. Was her name "Eve"? Who knows? That's hardly the point of Genesis. And there are lots of Christians out there who have no problem reconciling the Bible and evolution.

Originally Posted by ian6479

people rising from the dead, turning water into wine etc etc etc etc is just simply insanity.

Not insanity. Miracles. That was kind of the point. Your criticizing a miracle for being miraculous...isn't that kind of like criticizing water for being wet?

Originally Posted by ian6479

Simple point.. if Jesus really did have the power to perform miracles, why did he waste his time turning water into wine, feeding the 5,000 (what about the rest of the planet).. why not cure the coming of Aids, cancer, birth defects, poverty.. should I go on?

Good questions. All with answers. But if you're starting off thinking of acts of love and miracles as "wastes of time," I think you need to back up a step. Finding the correct answer to your (very good) questions necessitates getting started on the right foot.

Originally Posted by ian6479

I know many church going people, and would always support their right to believe in God, but transferring that belief into the REAL world breeds an environment of non-tollerance, illogic, and a possible reversal of the rights provided in the US constitution.

So you think Martin Luther King should have stayed in church and kept his mouth shut?

[yhwhshalomjr]

I know this may sound like a simple and smart answer,
Either you believe or you don't, But if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, you're probably going to have a lot of bitterness and hatred in your heart, your life which can have it's undesirable effect on everyone and everything you do in this life,sleepless nights, having to always be on your defense, not really sure of where you'll go if you dropped dead now, It's too many terrible things to name you look at the News, weather, Why risk not knowing what's going to happen to you when you can take a chance on Jesus When you can have peace in a Cruel world that ruled by Satan fallen angel, I say this because I was not as far gone as you sound (still not to late though)
but I rebelled for my own many reasons against God too but I was fortunate to have a grandmother who loved me enough to teach me when I was 3 and 4 yrs old . But being hard headed I hit rock bottom one year and wanted to take my life. Talking about Depressed and Hopeless all of the alcohol, money, things drugs could not give me the peace and sleep that I needed at night. But the Lord personally revealed himself to me on few occasions even though I fought against Him, I decided to take the high road and make things easier on myself, and plus I didn't have to worry about going to an eternal place of torment when I died,(grandma was still praying for me). Before she died I surrendered my life to Christ. He took away all the drugs, everything that I wasn't able to stop doing on my own. He healed me from many diseases like the big Cancer" whew". I mean simply put I don't have the breath to debate with anyone or time because I'm to busy trying to enjoy the fruits of my Obedience to A Holy God and to share some of the horrible things in my life that he protected me out of, besides I was a Psychic for a long time and I could see that Jesus was good and gave me a peace that I could not explain in words sober... the others things I seen gave me torment and I know for a fact there is a real Hell. and now I know for a fact there is a real heaven because I went there and seen it for myself wasn't asleep, And plainly I see now that Satan wanted to destroy me and others and God didn't , He has a way of showing you He loves you that no words can describe..
Take it from a former doubting Thomas!!!
p.s. and He forgave me for all those terrible things I did, why wouldn't I want to worship and serve Him? I'd really be stupid...

[Jazzedforhim]

Just wanted to add that faith is more then just blind faith. It's something one experiences deep inside them. I know God is with me. I cannot deny it. I know Jesus! It's not an arbitrary thing to pick and choose from.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr

I know this may sound like a simple and smart answer,
Either you believe or you don't, But if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, you're probably going to have a lot of bitterness and hatred in your heart, your life which can have it's undesirable effect on everyone and everything you do in this life,sleepless nights, having to always be on your defense, not really sure of where you'll go if you dropped dead now.

I have no bitterness or hatred in my heart. I get along wonderfully with my parents, friends, wife, and others that are important to me. I sleep wonderfully at night and I never feel as if I am on the defense, although religious aggression does sometimes put me in the place of making logical explanations. And if I dropped dead right now I would be dead. That's it.

I know it may be hard for some people to believe, but I don't need Jesus, or God, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Allah, or Shiva, or any other religious deity to make myself sleep better, feel at peace with the world, or get along with others. I live my life the best way I know how, and that's to enjoy every single minute of it because it's the only one I get. I don't worry about drinking alcohol because I'm afraid of ruining the temple of God. On the same note, I don't get tanked every day because I know that it's not good for me. But a few beers every once in a while never hurt anybody. I don't get all bent out of shape if I say a curse word because I'm afraid God is going to hear me and punish me. That would be insane. If I spent every waking moment of my life wondering whether the things I did were going to go against God than I would have sleepless nights, and as a result, I'd probably be more apt to stress, and in result I'd probably be more irritable around my friends, co-workers, and family resulting in feelings of angst and despair. The religious theory seems MUCH more stressful to me than any non-theist theory!

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by ian6479

Those Christians out there... when you here of Muslims believing fully that Allah created the world, and that some day they will be rewarded with 72 virgins and a river of honey etc etc do you think that sounds nuts?

Honestly, I think it sounds like they're looking to fulfill the lust of the flesh in Paradise. That's really sad. I don't think this is a good comparison to Christians who, hopefully, are looking forward to heaven as a fulfillment of their relationship with a loving God. Christians are looking forward to being reacquainted with loved ones. Christians are looking forward to learning more about their God and having questions answered. And, yes, Christians are looking forward to rewards for things in their lives that were pleasing to God. However, I don't think I know a single Christian (especially ones who know their Bible) who expects his reward to fulfill fleshly lusts.

Here is where I stand. I have no problem with believing in God, as most Christians/Catholics/Muslims etc I know are good people. What I do have a problem with is Religion! God and Religion are two different things. To believe in a deity and behave in good moral ways is one thing, but to literally translate the bible, judge others by its merits, and want to bring those very standards into public ligislation is absurd.

I agree with all of the above. However...

It's useless to have a holy book you can't understand. So, yes, they need to be translated. Once the book is translated, it useless to have a holy book you don't use. As a Christian, I think it is imperative that I read the Bible and apply it's precepts to my life.

The only people the Bible says to judge are those within the church. It expressly states that God/Jesus will be the judge of the world. However, all people--religious and non-religious--judge others all the time. It's part of our nature to process information about others; those who don't usually don't survive very long. You, Ian, have judged Christians with this very post.

I'll discuss bringing Biblical standards into legislation below.

My problem is that the whole point of democracy is that everyone is represented and everyone is free to make choices for themselves (provided they don't hurt others). Bringing Christian doctrine into debates like abortion rights/gay rights/stem cell research etc just displays the sheer ignorance and illogical thought that consumes most born again Christians. If we all lived by actual bible translation society would be unbearable.

Most choices people make affect others in some way, shape, or form. Some of the effects are obvious; some are insidious; some occur in the physical realm but will not be seen and/or recognized; some are spiritual and won't be seen in this lifetime.

Much Christian doctrine is simply good, common sense or morality shared by a large number of people, religious and non-religious. Of course, common sense and morality belong in the public debate. Furthermore, Christians are usually citizens of whichever country in which they live. In the U.S., the government is made up of the people (including Christians) and is governed by their ideas. Many ideas are included in the public debate (non-religious and religious) so, hopefully, good laws will arise that reflect the majority of society. By no means does this imply that only Christian ideas are valid.

Christian doctrine does have a place in debates on hot issues. Often, there is no consensus on the facts. When that is the case, what decides the issue? People's ideas decide the issue! This goes back to what I said in my previous paragraph. Many people, even non-Christian ones, are often influenced by what they perceive God says; most of these people aren't Bible experts, so it helps when those with knowledge share their information. After all, a debate involves more than one side; otherwise it's not a debate. After the debate, the people decide which side they will support. If you close the debate to Christian ideas, have you really considered all the evidence? If you refuse to look at all the evidence, what are you trying to hide? Why are you trying to hide it?

I can say that "sheer ignorance and illogical thought...consumes most" atheists and other non-Christians, too. Talk about judging others!

Believe it or not, I don't want my town, state, country, or world to live by Bible translation, either. Ancient Israel had that, and it didn't work. The only reason it didn't work is because there were individuals who didn't have a true relationship with God interpreting and adding to His words. Jesus called these people liars, hypocrites, and vipers. Justice was corrupted because of the corrupt nature of those in leadership. If you look at the theocratic societies in existence today, you will see the same kinds of corruption. However, just because man corrupts the Word of God does not mean that Biblical ideas don't belong in the public debate.

Lets move forward, accept that believing in Adam and Eve, rejecting Evolution on grounds that it doesnt align with the bible, people rising from the dead, turning water into wine etc etc etc etc is just simply insanity. Simple point.. if Jesus really did have the power to perform miracles, why did he waste his time turning water into wine, feeding the 5,000 (what about the rest of the planet).. why not cure the coming of Aids, cancer, birth defects, poverty.. should I go on?

Mark S. answered this pretty well. Miracles defy logic and scientific explanation. Furthermore, I've listened to non-Christians for enough years to realize that Jesus could never do enough to convince some of them; some people are never satisfied. He said that even someone returning from the dead wouldn't convince some. If He cured everything 2,000 years ago and we lived in a perfect world, where would that leave faith? Why would we need Him, today, if His work was finished then?

I think it's pretty smug to say that Jesus wasted His time. It's the very things He did that brought people to Him. They saw Him in action, in ways both big and small! If He had solved the "bigger" problems of the world, the people would probably have been unaware of Him, His deeds, or His message. Since Abraham, God has always worked within a local community (specifically, Israel) so others could see evidence of His works; He still does that today, and people with eyes willing to see shall notice evidence of His existence. If He had solved all the world's problems, the people would have had no need of a Savior or a God. Jesus works His perfect plan in His perfect timing to bring about the best for His kingdom. Neither you nor I will ever totally comprehend why God works the way He does.

I know many church going people, and would always support their right to believe in God, but transferring that belief into the REAL world breeds an environment of non-tollerance, illogic, and a possible reversal of the rights provided in the US constitution.

What is the purpose of having any belief, religious or otherwise, if it's not translated into the real world? Most people believe it is wrong to murder; however, if they didn't carry that belief into the real world, there would be no people left! Based upon posts I've read in this forum, people who do not believe in murder are very intolerant of those who do! People who believe in caring for the environment are very intolerant of those that pollute, litter, or otherwise destroy the environment. I believe a chair is going to hold my weight, so I act on that belief in the real world; to no do so would sentence me to a life of standing or sitting on the ground. The world is full of intolerant people! It's also full of illogical ones of all breeds, religious and non-religious! Why shouldn't people act on their beliefs if they believe it will make the world a better place? Using your logic, there is no place for activism in the world today. The court of public opinion will ultimately choose which way society goes, and activists of all stripes will strive to influence the court.

The rights provided in the Constitution will probably soon be overturned, but I sincerely doubt that such an upheaval will be the result of Christians influencing government. Most think it will come as a result of terrorism on our soil; I think it might come from the intolerant non-religious sector of society. Most Christians I know would fight to retain the rights granted by our Constitution!

Just out of curiosity, why do you care about the U.S. Constitution?

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

I have no bitterness or hatred in my heart. I get along wonderfully with my parents, friends, wife, and others that are important to me. I sleep wonderfully at night...

I imagine this is true of most "religious" people also, even before they "found religion." However, I also think that most people harbor some degree of bitterness or hatred in their hearts whether or not they recognize it or admit it.

...and I never feel as if I am on the defense, although religious aggression does sometimes put me in the place of making logical explanations.

You said once that you're not nearly as defensive on this forum as you once were. I've seen the change in you. However, I remember this one post of yours only because I remembering answering it. It sure sounds like you were on the defense then and, based on some other things I've read from you, I'm not really sure you're not defensive now.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...tml#post753636

And if I dropped dead right now I would be dead. That's it.

Well, I can't argue that is your belief. As we all know, belief does not equal fact.

I find it interesting that non-religious people get really irritated when religious individuals state their beliefs as facts, yet the non-religious don't even realize they do the same all the time. Why get bent out of shape when someone states their beliefs as facts? This is an internet forum on religion (and, now philosophy); I just assume that anything stated is evidence of a person's belief system. I make my own determination as to whether or not it's fact. <GCS, not sure this applies to you, but it is a valid observation, IMO.>

I know it may be hard for some people to believe, but I don't need Jesus, or God, or Yahweh, or Zeus, or Allah, or Shiva, or any other religious deity to make myself sleep better, feel at peace with the world, or get along with others. I live my life the best way I know how, and that's to enjoy every single minute of it because it's the only one I get.

I agree. Again, I imagine most religious people would feel the same. Before becoming a Christian, my life was pretty much like yours. I imagine it's still much like yours. I do believe all people have an inner compass that guides them into this sort of behavior (the Bible even affirms this); there are some, however, who ignore this compass and commit evil acts.

I don't worry about drinking alcohol because I'm afraid of ruining the temple of God. On the same note, I don't get tanked every day because I know that it's not good for me. But a few beers every once in a while never hurt anybody. I don't get all bent out of shape if I say a curse word because I'm afraid God is going to hear me and punish me. That would be insane. If I spent every waking moment of my life wondering whether the things I did were going to go against God than I would have sleepless nights, and as a result, I'd probably be more apt to stress, and in result I'd probably be more irritable around my friends, co-workers, and family resulting in feelings of angst and despair. The religious theory seems MUCH more stressful to me than any non-theist theory!

I think I told you once before that it seems you have a warped view of Christianity. While I recognize you might be directing these statements at all faith systems, I just want to go on record that these statements certainly don't reflect the majority of Christians I know. We're really not that much different from you. Most Christians I know don't stress out over any of the things you've listed; they might strive to control their liquor intake or language or other things they feel are displeasing to God, but they don't stress out over every little "sin." Christians recognize we are saved by grace and serve a merciful God; we trust Him to continue showering us with grace, mercy, and forgiveness in our everyday lives after becoming Christians. There's very little to no stress. Remorse over uncontrolled sin is really not much different from a non-religious person having remorse about his bad behavior; Christians just acknowledge that our actions also grieve a holy God, and we strive to correct our behavior so we are better to ourselves and others while seeking to please God.

I'm pretty sure you've read enough posts on this forum by Christians who have said the same thing I just did. Why do you continue to paint us in such light?

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

However, I also think that most people harbor some degree of bitterness or hatred in their hearts whether or not they recognize it or admit it.

I think you are correct that most people carry a degree of bitterness or hatred in their hearts but I don't think that this changes when people become Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... The hate is there it's just disguised with a nice little excuse for happiness.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

You said once that you're not nearly as defensive on this forum as you once were. I've seen the change in you. However, I remember this one post of yours only because I remembering answering it. It sure sounds like you were on the defense then and, based on some other things I've read from you, I'm not really sure you're not defensive now.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...tml#post753636

I think we may be talking about two different things. If you are referring to my own every day thought process as one of a defensive nature than no I don't see it that way. However, there are certain situations in everyone's life when they must take a defensive stance on certain things. I DO feel the need to defend my beliefs just as anybody else would when accosted by certain people. But, my entire outlook on life is not one in which I feel I must defend every one of my thoughts. I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is geared more towards what the OP meant.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I find it interesting that non-religious people get really irritated when religious individuals state their beliefs as facts, yet the non-religious don't even realize they do the same all the time. Why get bent out of shape when someone states their beliefs as facts? This is an internet forum on religion (and, now philosophy); I just assume that anything stated is evidence of a person's belief system. I make my own determination as to whether or not it's fact. <GCS, not sure this applies to you, but it is a valid observation, IMO.>

I suppose that you are correct, and as I have stated before, anybody who takes a particular belief system so seriously (theistic, non-theistic, pan-theistic, whatever) has the potential for becoming fanatical about them. I think this is very easily proven without religion as well. Look at politics. It's no better than religion when it comes to agreements and disagreements. So, I find it very possible that all sorts of different people with all sorts of different beliefs would still have issue with some of the things said on here. Is this making sense?

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I agree. Again, I imagine most religious people would feel the same. Before becoming a Christian, my life was pretty much like yours. I imagine it's still much like yours. I do believe all people have an inner compass that guides them into this sort of behavior (the Bible even affirms this); there are some, however, who ignore this compass and commit evil acts.

Yes, I agree, but it's important to distinguish that just because someone abandons the word of the bible does not make them commit evil acts. I think that's the main point most atheists want to make. And, personally, I think that's because we have been told by "x" amount of "Christians" in our life that we are evil for not believing in the Bible and we cannot stop ourselves from committing evil acts without the help of God.

Originally Posted by Blueberry

I think I told you once before that it seems you have a warped view of Christianity. While I recognize you might be directing these statements at all faith systems, I just want to go on record that these statements certainly don't reflect the majority of Christians I know. We're really not that much different from you. Most Christians I know don't stress out over any of the things you've listed; they might strive to control their liquor intake or language or other things they feel are displeasing to God, but they don't stress out over every little "sin." Christians recognize we are saved by grace and serve a merciful God; we trust Him to continue showering us with grace, mercy, and forgiveness in our everyday lives after becoming Christians. There's very little to no stress. Remorse over uncontrolled sin is really not much different from a non-religious person having remorse about his bad behavior; Christians just acknowledge that our actions also grieve a holy God, and we strive to correct our behavior so we are better to ourselves and others while seeking to please God.

I'm pretty sure you've read enough posts on this forum by Christians who have said the same thing I just did. Why do you continue to paint us in such light?

I do seem to paint a very negative light on Christianity, and even as I have directed a large part of my conversation already to Christianity, I do so because it is the faith system that most on this board are familiar with. It's also very difficult to try and encompass all of the different faiths of the world with one word, and I suppose using the word "Christianity" is my way of trying to do so. In large part, as you probably already know, I have been accosted by a number of Christians moreso than any other in my life about my beliefs. However, I feel very strongly that if I lived in an Islamic nation the same would be true for that as well. When I try to define a problem with religion I often state the word "Christianity" and I guess that is errant of me because I really do want to encompass the whole of religion. In particular, the Western Religions.

As far as the stress factor goes, I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel they are under a merciful God who will forgive them for what they do. But, what if they're wrong? What if God is going to hold you to every little thing you did wrong? I just can't see myself wondering about these types of things throughout my life. It would drive me insane. Perhaps I'm just to inquisitive in nature to believe in God.

[Mag3.14]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

The rights provided in the Constitution will probably soon be overturned, but I sincerely doubt that such an upheaval will be the result of Christians influencing government. Most think it will come as a result of terrorism on our soil; I think it might come from the intolerant non-religious sector of society. Most Christians I know would fight to retain the rights granted by our Constitution!

Just out of curiosity, why do you care about the U.S. Constitution?

Actually I wrote the OP a long time ago, and reading it now, it seems a little harsh! My wife is American and we are almost certainly moving to California early next year if she gets her way... I have also spent a lot of time living and working in the US which is why I guess I have an opinion. The US constitution is not my business and I apologize if I have offended you.

I think this one of my first posts, and a little time ago when I was seriously pi***d about religion for many reasons. Having read many debates on this forum and then reading my OP again I feel it is certainly unfair to many on this forum (not to all though ).