Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How are they not taken out of context when you quote the verse, out of context? Leviticus was not written in English. That verse doesn't even make complete sense in Hebrew, let alone English. That verse is referring to pagan prostitution practices of the Caananites in the temples to the god Molech. It says so in the surrounding verses and the way the verse is compiled in the text.
I know where Christians get it from, and I guarantee you 99% of them haven't even researched the original meaning or language. You cannot assume a 21st Century English translation by Conservative Bible publishers seeking to make a profit are going to accurately translate a 4000 year old text in a language that doesn't translate well into English.
Let me ask you this though. Just looking at the English version of that Leviticus verse, it says "Shall not lie with a man as with a woman". If that is referring to sex, how does a man lie with a man the same way he would a woman? Biologically that's impossible if it's intended to mean what you think it means. Why doesn't that verse just say, "A man shall not lie with a man"? Why the clause "as with a woman"?
Although, in Hebrew, the phrase "as with a woman" doesn't make any sense. It's closest english equivalent is "in the lyings of woman".
Trust me, this issue is not as clear cut as the modern day English translations would have you believe. There are a whole host of issues with that verse from translation issues, misuse of words (Abomination is a mistranslation - the Hebrew means nothing of the sort), context (ignored by most Christians), culture, Jewish law (Jewish law makes it impossible for that verse to refer to consensual same-sex relationships. It doesn't meet the requirements to be tried under Jewish law).
And again, all Christians ignore Leviticus, so for them to condemn gays with it is downright hypocritical.
Hmmm....you seem to have it all figured out. Are you gay?
Hmmm....you seem to have it all figured out. Are you gay?
Maybe I've actually studied this for at least the last decade, and have learned it's not as clear cut as your typical Christian would like to believe. That's because your average Christian doesn't even know the origins of their Bible, let alone studied the original languages , context, and cultural history.
I would think with your new found deconversion, you'd be more open to learning the other views on Biblical subjects and not just assuming quote mining of random verses is accurate.
And by asking "are you gay", are you assuming I have some kind if bias, as opposed to actually investing time in studying the subject?
Maybe I've actually studied this for at least the last decade, and have learned it's not as clear cut as your typical Christian would like to believe. That's because your average Christian doesn't even know the origins of their Bible, let alone studied the original languages , context, and cultural history.
I would think with your new found deconversion, you'd be more open to learning the other views on Biblical subjects and not just assuming quote mining of random verses is accurate.
And by asking "are you gay", are you assuming I have some kind if bias, as opposed to actually investing time in studying the subject?
I'll take that as a yes. That's fine! Study away my friend, I've been up all night and I need some sleep but I hear what you're saying.
Maybe I've actually studied this for at least the last decade, and have learned it's not as clear cut as your typical Christian would like to believe. That's because your average Christian doesn't even know the origins of their Bible, let alone studied the original languages , context, and cultural history.
I would think with your new found deconversion, you'd be more open to learning the other views on Biblical subjects and not just assuming quote mining of random verses is accurate.
And by asking "are you gay", are you assuming I have some kind if bias, as opposed to actually investing time in studying the subject?
When Ilene asked that question I thought, "wow, that was kind of rude" and I did get the impression that there was some anti-gay bias.
But, then it brought me to another question, which I've pondered in the past. Is it always rude to ask that question? Is it always offensive? Or, are there ever times when it's appropriate. After all, isn't better to ask a question than to make assumptions?
I also find it interested that this discussion about shunning has turned into more of a discussion about the Christian attitude about gay people. There are other instances of shunning aren't there? I am guessing that these days, shunning gay people may be more common than shunning for other reasons, but I am interested in hearing about the other reasons too.
I think there were one or two examples of non-believers or doubters being shunned. Just wondering if anyone knows of other cases...
Last edited by looking4answers12; 12-08-2011 at 04:50 AM..
Reason: spelling
When Ilene asked that question I thought, "wow, that was kind of rude" and I did get the impression that there was some anti-gay bias.
But, then it brought me to another question, which I've pondered in the past. Is it always rude to ask that question? Is it always offensive? Or, are there ever times when it's appropriate. After all, isn't better to ask a question than to make assumptions?
I also find it interested that this discussion about shunning has turned into more of a discussion about the Christian attitude about gay people. There are other instances of shunning aren't there? I am guessing that these days, shunning gay people may be more common than shunning for other reasons, but I am interested in hearing about the other reasons too.
I think there were one or two examples of non-believers or doubters being shunned. Just wondering if anyone knows of other cases...
I haven't taken the time to read anything before this page, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I'll add a case.
Tonight! On Law and Shunning - Episode 24: Ashcombe Gardens, PA
It was a typical day for Ashcombe Gardens in Pennsylvannia in that year which happened sometime in my childhood, which was many years ago. The Jehovah's Witness owners were happily consulting their copies of the The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, when the husband (and father) decided that he didn't want to be a JW anymore - possibly because of the obnoxious misplacement of a single very important comma in the JW's retelling and "translation" of the Cross conversation in which Jesus gives Christians hope that they will immediately go to Heaven when they die. In the story, he tells the one criminal "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Now this is all fine and dandy, except that the JWs don't believe in such crazy stuff, so they misplace the comma - turning it into "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise". This places the future entrance of the criminal into Paradise at a much later, more Jehovah Witnessian time. This is a very important comma, and it shows the train wreck a translator can cause when they do something on purpose to serve personal theological agendas. Ahem. But I digress.
It COULD have been this comma that caused the man to decide that a more rational form of Christianity was in order. I guess we'll never know. But deconvert he did - oh yes! As a good family man, and a loving husband and father, he had full confidence that his family would follow him into this new understanding of Faith. But alas! The power of the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrination practices was sufficient to turn his family against him. He was now no longer "Dear" or "Pap" - but "APOSTATE!" Following standard Jehovah's Witness procedure, his family shunned him. They did not speak to him, they did not associate with him. They left him.
A horrible story about a horrible practice about a horrible little sect of Christians who somehow manage to hide behind the government-sanctioned and lawyer-approved idea of the "Freedom of Religion" while at the same time decrying all governments as evil, and ripe for conquest by the glorious Army of Jehovah in the End-Time - which was to have come in 1914, 1975 and some other times which turned out to be totally wrong. They claim that despite what Scripture says about everyone in the world seeing and hearing the return of Jesus, he actually returned invisibly in 1914 - and he's ruling. In secret.
The truth of the matter is that the Angel Gabriel "secretly" and "invsibly" revoked their Prophecy License a long time ago, and they haven't bothered to tell anyone about it: it would be bad for business.
BUT once again - I digress! AHEM!
The point is that this is apparantly what happened to the father/owner of the very popular Ashcombe Gardens in Pennsylvannia - a garde/nursery shop that is quite large. It happened a long time ago, and I've never forgotten the sheer horror of the very idea of having one's own family shun one because of a religious sect.....
I haven't taken the time to read anything before this page, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I'll add a case.
Tonight! On Law and Shunning - Episode 24: Ashcombe Gardens, PA
It was a typical day for Ashcombe Gardens in Pennsylvannia in that year which happened sometime in my childhood, which was many years ago. The Jehovah's Witness owners were happily consulting their copies of the The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, when the husband (and father) decided that he didn't want to be a JW anymore - possibly because of the obnoxious misplacement of a single very important comma in the JW's retelling and "translation" of the Cross conversation in which Jesus gives Christians hope that they will immediately go to Heaven when they die. In the story, he tells the one criminal "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Now this is all fine and dandy, except that the JWs don't believe in such crazy stuff, so they misplace the comma - turning it into "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise". This places the future entrance of the criminal into Paradise at a much later, more Jehovah Witnessian time. This is a very important comma, and it shows the train wreck a translator can cause when they do something on purpose to serve personal theological agendas. Ahem. But I digress.
It COULD have been this comma that caused the man to decide that a more rational form of Christianity was in order. I guess we'll never know. But deconvert he did - oh yes! As a good family man, and a loving husband and father, he had full confidence that his family would follow him into this new understanding of Faith. But alas! The power of the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrination practices was sufficient to turn his family against him. He was now no longer "Dear" or "Pap" - but "APOSTATE!" Following standard Jehovah's Witness procedure, his family shunned him. They did not speak to him, they did not associate with him. They left him.
A horrible story about a horrible practice about a horrible little sect of Christians who somehow manage to hide behind the government-sanctioned and lawyer-approved idea of the "Freedom of Religion" while at the same time decrying all governments as evil, and ripe for conquest by the glorious Army of Jehovah in the End-Time - which was to have come in 1914, 1975 and some other times which turned out to be totally wrong. They claim that despite what Scripture says about everyone in the world seeing and hearing the return of Jesus, he actually returned invisibly in 1914 - and he's ruling. In secret.
The truth of the matter is that the Angel Gabriel "secretly" and "invsibly" revoked their Prophecy License a long time ago, and they haven't bothered to tell anyone about it: it would be bad for business.
BUT once again - I digress! AHEM!
The point is that this is apparantly what happened to the father/owner of the very popular Ashcombe Gardens in Pennsylvannia - a garde/nursery shop that is quite large. It happened a long time ago, and I've never forgotten the sheer horror of the very idea of having one's own family shun one because of a religious sect.....
Thats what religion can do to you (and your family). 4000 year old primatives controlling modern man. I am becoming less religious with every passing year
When Ilene asked that question I thought, "wow, that was kind of rude" and I did get the impression that there was some anti-gay bias.
But, then it brought me to another question, which I've pondered in the past. Is it always rude to ask that question? Is it always offensive? Or, are there ever times when it's appropriate. After all, isn't better to ask a question than to make assumptions?
I also find it interested that this discussion about shunning has turned into more of a discussion about the Christian attitude about gay people. There are other instances of shunning aren't there? I am guessing that these days, shunning gay people may be more common than shunning for other reasons, but I am interested in hearing about the other reasons too.
I think there were one or two examples of non-believers or doubters being shunned. Just wondering if anyone knows of other cases...
Asking if someone is gay isn't necessarily rude, but in light of the previous remark "You just have all the answers don't you", I took it as condescending.
It terms of other shunning, interracial relationships are often shunned by certain Christians, particularly in the south. Being an atheist is the only other big one next to being gay that will likely get you blacklisted by your family that I can think of.
It can be awful what some people do to others because they are so sure they are doing God's will.
Case in point: Some religious people will shun their own children if they announce that they are gay. Others will shun their children if they leave the family religion.
Let's talk about people shunning other people out of loyalty to their religious convictions. Have you been the victim of shunning? Have you shunned others? Obviously not all religious people shun or believe that God would ever want people to shun others, but what do you think of those who do believe God wants them to shun others; where do you think they get that idea from?
It seems to me, a religious person that does not believe in hell will not shun others out of religious conviction, because in order to shun out of religious conviction one must believe they are following the example of shunning God has set for them by condemning people to hell.
Who teaches religious people to shun? Where and how is it taught?
Well, from a Christian perspective this is remarkably alien to the teachings of Christ, Who dared to consort with lepers, tax collectors, and prostitutes. Heck, one of the most moving parables He taught was that of the Good Samaritan, who were considered to be vile and unspeakable people by righteous Jews of the period. That's because the message of Christ was that there is value in all people, and that to shun them is to demonstrate a decided lack of humility.
Well, from a Christian perspective this is remarkably alien to the teachings of Christ, Who dared to consort with lepers, tax collectors, and prostitutes. Heck, one of the most moving parables He taught was that of the Good Samaritan, who were considered to be vile and unspeakable people by righteous Jews of the period. That's because the message of Christ was that there is value in all people, and that to shun them is to demonstrate a decided lack of humility.
Are you a Christian? If so, do you then admit that other teachings in the NT contradict the teachings of Christ?
Thats what religion can do to you (and your family). 4000 year old primatives controlling modern man. I am becoming less religious with every passing year
Well, to be fair - that's what any brain-washing group can do to you. It's not just limited to religion.
It certainly does crop up in the more extreme sects, though!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
