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Consciousness is relative to individual though. It is not a constant additive which is impervious to individuality through, experience, uniqueness, development.
If a person for example becomes injured, consciousness is foiled re surviving focus. If a person drinks too much liquor, consciousness is shown to proportionately diminish....until I think everyone knows the outcome. Laughing another example. The ape is still there in a way. He can be evoked.
We all have different degrees and levels which are fluctuating with each moment. Diminishing or augmenting potential intencity. If a person meditated all day or...the other extreme laughed all day....both would become zombies in time....as the behaviour is inconsistent with the human reality of consciousness and express's imbalance. Balance is important
Consciousness is.. an ability to imagine an outcome or a past reality ect. Imagination ability and acuteness is not a universal additive. It varies and is reliant on experience , uniqueness and especially its emerging purpose...need-survival. Very low IQ people have trouble remembering things, planning things yet....do they have a proportionately smaller measure in God given soul....well of course not.
Everything we know unfolds motion....including the premise for mathematics...gravity-density. Math of course is useless on its own, something is needed, not something physical....something in order to use in mimic of what can be perceptually depended on ...the pefect unfolding consequence of mass. The beauty is in the accelerating unfolding of everything...Is there a master clock? My opinion is that there is, although it is accelerating. The only constant is light and the only way we can detect it is within motion-unfolding motion.
Virtually everything unfolds....if there is a God which I believe....a blunt interruption in creation allowing for consciousness is similar to praying to catch a fish and clearly not what the unfolding nature of creation demonstrates.....Consciousness would have come quickly once the higher element in progress was established as....the very nature of consciousness is an accelerating value...we see this as a baby quickly becomes more conscious...Reasonably healthy life for example increases and enhances self awareness with experience...A God who required interruption in a creation to suit taste makes no sense in a way...politely speaking....enjoy your writings M. Did God make a mistake and need to season the perfect creation?...what is being suggested is that creation was imperfect from the outset.....given a source related creation. So it seems to me that everything we can know about the creation must be tossed out in order to accomodate a new personality for God and the emerging . becoming process in man as a whole, including each life, in the becoming principal.
enjoy your writings M. Did God make a mistake and need to season the perfect creation?...what is being suggested is that creation was imperfect from the outset.....given a source related creation.
No, God didnot make a mistake, however I believe he did refine his creation of man, but the imperfection existed in primordal man, not man after Adam. Which may be one of the very reasons God created primordal man first; and allowed them to exist for a long time; I think the refining was going on then, before he gave Adam consciousness- which is the spirit of life in men, and the image of God.
So the imperfection existed in the first humans God created, they were the ones he invested the " Physical refinements in;" Later the " First man with Consciousness - Adam", in him and his generate the planned " Spiritual refinements began." And the actual " First man that these Spiritual refinements were complete- was Jesus", another " First man."
Consciousness is too superior to have evolved from inferior biology by simple natural selection; unconsciousness cannot select consciousness. Natural selection is what assumes to create contrived consciousness ; is that the orgin of consciousness- these enormous influence of ideas are not Palaeolithic principles and cannot be derivied from animals , both of which are vastly inferior to consciousness. The continuity hypothesis of Darwin for the evolution of mind is more than a very suspicious totem , its evolutionary mythology and the holy grail for scientist.
The yearning for certainty which grails the scientist, the aching beauty which harasses the artist, the sweet thorn of justice which fierces the rebel from the eases of life , or the thrill of exultation with which we hear of true acts of that now difficult virtue of courage, of cheerful endurance of hopeless suffering - are these really derivable from matter? Or even continuous with the idiot hierarchies of speechless apes?
(a) this discussion is NOT about the origins of consciousness through natural selection. The existence of animal consciousness is a given here. The discussion is whether your contention that the 'consciousness' of the mesolithic peoples (as exemplified by their culture) could have derived from that of the palaeolithic peoples, and frankly without natural selection being involved too much.
(b) The evidence presented seems to show that the latter had smarts enough to be the basis of the latter and this you seem unable to refute other than with denial and sideswipes at Darwinism and dressing up irrelevant arguments as semi -poetry in hopes to make it appealing.
You have got to do better than this, or the only one looking suspicious will be you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
This has got to be one of the greatest compliments I have ever received here; thank you, you are too kind.
And this has to get the Golden Globe for impudent pride in Faith - based closed -mindedness.
And this has to get the Golden Globe for impudent pride in Faith - based closed -mindedness.
I have no faith, for the 100th time of telling you.
In my view, humans carried their speechlessness down through the Pleistocene age and never transferred anything to Cromagnon. Whatever minute transmissions from Neanderthalers, to Cromagnon ended around 35,000 B.C. And I believe God discontinued primordal man abruptly before he created Adam. And none of them survived. Human ecology during the Plestocene ages ended. And the evidence from that ecology reveals absolutely no civilization, no transportation, no educational systems, no agriculture, no religion, no technology , no language, which translates to no consciousness and no transfer of anything of significance in archaeology.
I have no faith, for the 100th time of telling you.
In my view, humans carried their speechlessness down through the Pleistocene age and never transferred anything to Cromagnon. Whatever minute transmissions from Neanderthalers, to Cromagnon ended around 35,000 B.C. And I believe God discontinued primordal man abruptly before he created Adam. And none of them survived. Human ecology during the Plestocene ages ended. And the evidence from that ecology reveals absolutely no civilization, no transportation, no educational systems, no agriculture, no religion, no technology , no language, which translates to no consciousness and no transfer of anything of significance in archaeology.
You deny arguing from faith and then hold up your view which I have shown to based on inadequate evidence and indeed rather on dismissal of the evidence. Thus your view (unless you can better support your contention) is simply what you want t believe or prefer to believe. That is enough in itself to be 'faith' based. In addition, it's clear that your beliefs are based on the Bible stories so it is religion - based faith. It does not matter that you do not consider yourself a member of any particular religion; religious claims is what your beliefs are based on rather than valid argument. That is what I at least call 'Faith - based.
Now I am still open to some arguments about human consciousness being of a different order from animal. I am aware of a remarkable apparent leap from even dolphins and dogs to humans. at the same time I am quite rightly aware that there are things that animals can do that humans would find tough, like navigation or colour- changing or night - sight. God -given or evolved? If evolved, why it so necessary to get all mystical about our particular kind of problem solving mind? It had to evolve to outsmart bigger and faster animals, just as viruses evolve tougher strains simply because we wipe out the weaker ones.
You deny arguing from faith and then hold up your view which I have shown to based on inadequate evidence and indeed rather on dismissal of the evidence. Thus your view (unless you can better support your contention) is simply what you want t believe or prefer to believe. That is enough in itself to be 'faith' based. In addition, it's clear that your beliefs are based on the Bible stories so it is religion - based faith. It does not matter that you do not consider yourself a member of any particular religion; religious claims is what your beliefs are based on rather than valid argument. That is what I at least call 'Faith - based.
Now I am still open to some arguments about human consciousness being of a different order from animal. I am aware of a remarkable apparent leap from even dolphins and dogs to humans. at the same time I am quite rightly aware that there are things that animals can do that humans would find tough, like navigation or colour- changing or night - sight. God -given or evolved? If evolved, why it so necessary to get all mystical about our particular kind of problem solving mind? It had to evolve to outsmart bigger and faster animals, just as viruses evolve tougher strains simply because we wipe out the weaker ones.
We are indeed, a virus with sneakers.
My beliefs are based on facts, not your obsession with " Giving me faith that I don't have." You need to associate my beliefs with faith because you yourself cannot accept that belief in God can be seperate from faith , religion, churchs or traditional venues. So it is you who bunch them altogether in your navigation through your perceptions. I am not associated with any faith based group, I do not have personal faith and the bible does not " Produce Faith." This is the biblical definition of Faith; "the essence of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." Faith is complette trust in God no matter what, I certainly wish I was like that, but I am not. I know how I am, I need more and more evidence of God. And my claims are based on that accumulated evidence, inspite of your suggestion that they are based on some religion or some nebulous faith.
God then is the real orgin of civilization, he is the real architect of human civilization. It ultimately can be traced to him. It was he who gave life, it was he who gave consciousness , and it was he who instilled all the componants of civilizations roots, and it was he who kept primordal man from becomming civilizied.
God then is the real orgin of civilization, he is the real architect of human civilization. It ultimately can be traced to him. It was he who gave life, it was he who gave consciousness , and it was he who instilled all the componants of civilizations roots, and it was he who kept primordal man from becomming civilizied.
Then why did God not, keep the Holocaust and many other such things from happening ? Creationism has nothing to do with God other then trying to physically corner a God to prove a God exists from material evidence to self... which is impossible.
It also has nothing to do with the idea of an evolving growth of god throughout humanity because, it is self consumed in doubt and avoids the value of unity, mans quest....therefore creationism has no inherent theistic value...
Creationism is more of a self consumed religion, a narcissists God interepetation. The idea suggests that God refines and fine tunes things to suit himself...where we know this is a human requirement in correction..We must include all such fine tuning then...earthquakes, murders, and so on to be Gods "Intentional Will" as it is not "kept from" in given fine tuning potencial.
As we see, nothing can join the dots with a creationist platform...civilization and consciousness emerged out of a growing , evolving creation. Simply an opinion, up for change but theres gotta be a reason which makes sense which I havn't seen in any way because all the major questions are left in a corner.
Then why did God not, keep the Holocaust and many other such things from happening ?
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Because he wanted it to happen in our history, its just that simple.
You know I understand the need for many to play " Pin the donkey of catastrophe on God", but yet still deny his existence; that is transparent and I see through it; any person who claims God did anything turbulent, or didnot stop the turbulence, in my view is admitting to his existence. To blame God for anything is a conformation of his existence.
As we see, nothing can join the dots with a creationist platform...civilization and consciousness emerged out of a growing , evolving creation.
The theme of emergent evolution comming from creation is still a false theory in my view, I would argue that God created 95% of his creations " As is," and I do see 5% of his creations designed to evolve, but only to a certain predictable pattern, and no futher, such as the pupi to butterfly. Emergent evolution is basically all properties of matter have emerged from some unspecified forerunner. Those of complex chemical compounds have emerged from the conjunction of simpler chemical componants. Properties distinctive of living things have emerged from the conjunctions of these complex molecules, and consciousness emerged from there.
That is severly infected by the ceasation of such a miracle pattern because there has been no new emergents. Neither in animals or human consciousness. If evolution is an advance, what stopped the advancement? Did it decide within itself;" Okay, thats enough, I quess I'll stop evolving now." How is evolution going to guide the course of a brain, then whoop, discontinue its course and settle on our modern mind. Oh so now evolution has a reductionist reverse system built in?
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