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Considering that his fame/notoriety really didn't spread until after his crucifixion, it is no wonder that there isn't any contemporaries mentioning him. There are references to the cult of Christianity almost immediately after his death though. That speaks to his existence at one point.
Muhammad has actual birth and death dates. April 26, 570- June 8, 632.
Jesus doesn't have any specific birth and death dates which is surprising considering the brouhaha surrounding said dates.
Muhammad is credited with actually writing the Koran. Jesus' biographies were written sometime after his death.
Therefore, we can assume that Muhammad was actually a real person while Jesus was possibly a real person but could possibly be a legend or an amalgamation of several persons.
The idea that his followers were martyred doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was a real person or that Jesus rose from the dead. Rather, that the cause of Jesus (or whatever movement it was) would not die.
It's not like the Roman's weren't going to chop off Paul's head even if he denied Jesus. He was part of a movement that they wanted to squelch. The Romans couldn't care less about whether Jesus rose from the dead or not.
Good Point Eddie
I have always believed that the myths aurrounding the historical Jesus were probably based on more than one real person.
I do not believe that Jesus was overly influential during his lifetime lest we would have had some contemporary writing about him. Also, we have to remember that Jesus being a poor laborer, and a citizen of occupied Rome, probably was illiterate so he himself would not have written anything nor been too concerned with anything written.
There was probably one "Jesus" who was a Nazzarean, hence the one mistranslation in the gospel of "Jesus of Nazareth" (Should have been Jesus of the Nazzareans)
ALso probably a different Jesus that laid claim to being the Messiah that was executed by Rome for insiting rebellion, although had this been a serious charge we would have had some Roman writings about it.
The Gnostic gospels paint a different image of Jesus the human as the synoptic gospels, but since we know that the Bible was a document assembled with human agendas in mind, espeially the agenda of forming what is known as "orthodox" Then of course, anything pointing to a different lineage or teaching ofJesus may be omitted. What the Gnostic gospels do prove is that there legends and stories of Jesus may have been drawn from a number of different teachers.
Is there any accounts whatsoever by indipendant observers that are unbiased?
No there are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust Bowl
Many of Jesus' disciples were brutally martyered for their beliefs. Why would a person endure so much pain unless they truly believed that Jesus was the son of God?
Same reason why Muslims blow their heads off for for what they believe to be true.
....and where is your evidence that they even existed let alone were martyred?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale
There ARE non biblical near contemporary sources that mention Jesus.
Not really! One proven fake, another doubtful...the rest only mention Christians.
Honestly, I don't know what the Quran says regarding martyr. I do know what the Bible says, and I do know what Christ speaks.
As a reminder, the basis for Christianity is Christ. If you do something in direct opposition to the words of Christ, are you truly a Christian?
If I say I'm straight, but only have sex with men, am I straight?
If I say I'm a vegetarian, but I only eat meat, am I a vegetarian?
Maybe if you actually sat down and read some of the Gospels before running your mouth, you would understand this simple logic.
You are making a huge assumption there little man. I was a Christian (first Roman Catholic then Evangelical Protestant) and have read and studied the Bible extensively to include its history. It was this intensive study that actually helped me come to my senses and walk away from Christianity and organized religion altogether.
The history of your faith is FULL of Christians suppressing, subjugating, persecuting and killing others who did not agree with them. What the Gospels say and what the followers have done are indeed two different things. The same could be said for Islam. For every terrorist, there are peaceful Muslims who just want to get along and make their way in this world. That whole "well they aren't really Christians then" is a wash because the result is the same. They believed they were doing God and Christ's work, so yes, they are Christians. Good words don't impress me...actions do.
Painting all Muslims as those willing to kill for their faith with that broad brush (which is what you did with your statement) is no different than painting all Christians with a broad brush...good or ill. So, how did it feel?
BTW, I have read the Quran as well. Apparently, you have not. To use your own words, maybe if you actually sat down and read the Quran before running your mouth, you would understand this simple logic.
Last edited by Fullback32; 06-04-2012 at 12:24 PM..
You are making a huge assumption there little man. I was a Christian (first Roman Catholic then Evangelical Protestant) and have read and studied the Bible extensively to include its history. It was this intensive study that actually helped me come to my senses and walk away from Christianity and organized religion altogether.
The history of your faith is FULL of Christians suppressing, subjugating, persecuting and killing others who did not agree with them. What the Gospels say and what the followers have done are indeed two different things. The same could be said for Islam. For every terrorist, there are peaceful Muslims who just want to get along and make their way in this world. That whole "well they aren't really Christians then" is a wash because the result is the same. They believed they were doing God and Christ's work, so yes, they are Christians. Good words don't impress me...actions do.
Painting all Muslims as those willing to kill for their faith with that broad brush (which is what you did with your statement) is no different than painting all Christians with a broad brush...good or ill. So, how did it feel?
BTW, I have read the Quran as well. Apparently, you have not. To use your own words, maybe if you actually sat down and read the Quran before running your mouth, you would understand this simple logic.
I agree with the bolded part of your statement which is why I deleted it, but what exactly does the Quran say regarding martyrs?
Does it implore people to kill for their religion?
Why wouldn't they have existed? As time passes, many deeds are attributed to historical figures that are distorted or embellished the farther we get away from the actual event.
Perhaps Jesus really was a selfless man determined to aid the poor. Perhaps Mohammed really thought he was listening to god. And perhaps these two were so spiritual, likable, and convincing that they garnered a large following.
If I look at today's Televangelists and the huge crowds of eager listeners they draw, I find it quite plausible that something similar may have occurred in the case of Jesus or Mohammed: What they said may have just imbued a lot of hope in people and thus, both were bestowed with certain mythical qualities.
Well, you have stated my opinion almost perfectly. I think it is likely that Jesus existed. He was probably a good public speaker and what he said was uplifting during a difficult time in the region. He found a following that annoyed the Roman government of the day, leading to his crucifixion. Which in turn made him an iconic figure.
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