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I understand that. What I'm bothered by is the fact that members of all 4 Abrahamic faiths (and non-Abrahamic faiths) each claim to have personal relationships with God/be in the presence of God. This means that either God doesn't really care all that much about which faith you believe in (in which case, we can logically throw out all holy books, since they don't really matter. As long as you're sort of kind of on the right track, maybe, you get to feel the awesome presence of the lord).
To me, this seems paradoxical, especially considering the, well, rather specific claims made by the Abrahamic god in the various holy books ascribed to him. I don't see how any member of an Abrahamic faith, based on the evidence provided by the holy books, can rightly believe the claims that members of other Abrahamic faiths really feel the true presence of God. You are right that there seems to be some agreement about the primary aspects of God, but one of the primary aspects that you all seem to agree on is that God is not pleased when you worship the wrong way. So how then can you accept the claims of members of other Abrahamic faiths to truly feel the presence of God when their beliefs contradict your notion of what God is really and truly like?
I may disagree with some of those that believe they are following the President's plans. But, that does not mean we both can't "feel" the presence of the same President.
So it is with God(swt).
Us Muslims do not believe God(swt) is within the realm of the physical world, the creator does not become part of the creation. But, we do believe all people have the ability to feel the "Presence" of his Handiwork. A Person should/must be able to "feel" some sort of connection/presence of God if they believe in his existence. (Just my opinion)
While I may believe some followers of an Abrahamic faith are in error in the way they worship God(swt) I do not see that they are worshiping a different God(swt). I believe that at one time all members of the Abrahamic faiths worshiped in the same manner, and we have all received the same scriptures. I do believe some have "lost/changed" parts of what was revealed, but they are still worshiping the same God(swt) even if I see it as no longer being in the manner originally revealed to them.
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Us Muslims do not believe God(swt) is within the realm of the physical world, the creator does not become part of the creation. But, we do believe all people have the ability to feel the "Presence" of his Handiwork. A Person should/must be able to "feel" some sort of connection/presence of God if they believe in his existence. (Just my opinion)
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A religion whose God has not disappeared, would need to point him out to potential converts in order to convince them of the truth of their faith. This can be problematic enough that it would militate against the widespread acceptance of that faith.
A religion whose God has not disappeared, would need to point him out to potential converts in order to convince them of the truth of their faith. This can be problematic enough that it would militate against the widespread acceptance of that faith.
And a person is free to disbelieve. I do not expect a person to convert to Islam unless they have found their own reason to believe God exists and Islam is the way to follow Him. If a person converts to Islam based on my words, I would not see them as being an actual convert, as they would not be converting for the right reasons.
Islam spreads because individuals themselves find reason to believe.
Well, I never heard that one before That is a silly argument in my opinion but let's agree that we disagree....But I mean any miracles or things like god did in the beginning of the religion...You would think that he would appear or create a miracle in any of these 10,000 religions but the answer is of course a big......no.......
Aryeh Kaplan wrote extensively on exactly this subject. I'll try to remember the name of a specific book, in case you are interested.
His basic idea is this: our generation, and the ones before us basically do not merit to see G-d directly. If we were any better, perhaps we would. But look around the world today. We all basically suck. Furthermore, if Hashem did begin to reveal big open miracles to us, we would either be 1)too sceptical to believe it, or 2) so overwhelmed, that we would literally fall apart. So hashem loves us and shields us from seeing His "face."
Remember, it was only 2,000 years ago that the Holy Temple stood on the temple mount in Jerusalem, where open miracles happened on a daily basis. We're not talking ancient history. And in those times, the greatest of the rabbis could perform resurrection of the dead, by invoking Hashem's real name. You say that's fairy tale? But they wrote of this ability extensively in the Talmud, which was available for all the world to see, and yet nobody from those times wrote counter arguments that there wasn't resurection of the dead being performed by rabbis. It's only in our modern times that we have so many who are sceptical of religion today, and then apply that sceptism to earlier times as well.
You will find that a common idea is that we --unlike the claimers-- don't merit to witness the infinite number of hiders Or tell our agnosticism apart from our internal imaginations and misunderstandings.
The implication I sift from that is that the hiders don't merit to have us witness them. I for one, am forced to witness and agree with the existence of countless unbelievable and hard-to-look-at people.
This theist idea is sort of like talking about a great-grandparent who hides from his currently living progeny because he deems them too grotesque now-a-days (so our anscestors must have been glowing saints before). Instead of the other way around, that the founding-hider is the grotesque and egotistical one.
1) Those who are too skeptical to believe in gods can't be skeptical enough to deny observed reality; nor will their skepticism be subdued by denying them any evidence. Appearing to these skeptical people would only help this needy being's cause.
2) The people in the myths weren't overwhelmed, nor did they fall apart; not even the skeptical, immensely sinful ones which were hence forth "convinced."
For the majority of us who follow any of the 4 Abrahamic faiths we seem to be in agreement about the primary attributes of God(SWT). Our differences are mostly centered around the proper way of worship more than the Nature of God(swt) Although we do have some within each group that seem to deviate from everybody else.
I'm not totally convinced that that is an accurate assessment of the situation, at least as Fundamentalists are concerned. I am sure you have heard Fundamentalist/Evangelicals state that Islam is a deception from Satan and Allah itself is a diabolical entity. I use gender neutral wording when speaking of Creator as I don't see how it can have gender; no offense intended. Since they see it this way, there can be no commonality in the attributes of Allah and the Christian God.
Even as we look over the history of Christianity, during the Reformation the Catholic Church saw Protestantism as a heresy from Satan. This goes beyond a mere disagreement about worship. Today, Fundamentalist/Evangelicals are well-known to claim that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and Rome is the Harlot of Babylon. Again, this is far more than a disagreement concerning manner of worship. Jews who do not eventually accept Jesus are damned in their eyes.
I don't know enough about Islam to know if these same attitudes exist among Fundamentalist sects concerning other Islamic denominations (correct word?) or other Abrahamic religions, but Fundamentalism in religion has a tendency to marginalize other forms of religion as heresy, blasphemy, damnable and diabolical. If allowed, people of a Fundamentalist mentality will persecute those they disagree with. I am always very wary of "fundamentalist" anything, especially as it pertains to religion.
Last edited by Fullback32; 09-14-2012 at 10:05 PM..
I'm not totally convinced that that is an accurate assessment of the situation, at least as Fundamentalists are concerned. I am sure you have heard Fundamentalist/Evangelicals state that Islam is a deception from Satan and Allah itself is a diabolical entity. I use gender neutral wording when speaking of Creator as I don't see how it can have gender; no offense intended. Since they see it this way, there can be no commonality in the attributes of Allah and the Christian God.
Even as we look over the history of Christianity, during the Reformation the Catholic Church saw Protestantism as a heresy from Satan. This goes beyond a mere disagreement about worship. Today, Fundamentalist/Evangelicals are well-known to claim that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and Rome is the Harlot of Babylon. Again, this is far more than a disagreement concerning manner of worship. Jews who do not eventually accept Jesus are damned in their eyes.
I don't know enough about Islam to know if these same attitudes exist among Fundamentalist sects concerning other Islamic denominations (correct word?) or other Abrahamic religions, but Fundamentalism in religion has a tendency to marginalize other forms of religion as heresy, blasphemy, damnable and diabolical. If allowed, people of a Fundamentalist mentality will persecute those they disagree with. I am always very wary of "fundamentalist" anything, especially as it pertains to religion.
I think I agree with what you are saying.
With the possible exception over the Name Allaah.
In Islam Allaah(swt) has no Gender. there is no feminine nor Masculine form of the Name Allaah. there also is no plural form. Grammatically they can not be constructed. Every other noun in Arabic can be grammatically constructed in a gender or plural form.
I definitely agree that fundamentalism does lead to a self righteous mentality and places all others as wrong. Even within the same religion. This opens the door for animosity and strong disagreement.
Sure allah can become plural, its as easy as adding a new word to the current Arabic dictionary which calls the gods something other than "fathers," something perhaps like lahs.
Facts and fiction sometime work together...maybe we do not see God, because we do not believe God is this or God is that...maybe God is still here, we just forgotten what God is...and where God is...
Now Fact of the matter is...Our Sun is a finite source of energy...it Uses fuel much like all things need fuel...food...energy...So eventually the Sun will become a nova...that might be a long time from now...But when that does occur...some one will have gotten the end of time right...and that will be it...
So predicting the end...is something we should take note of...even though it is far off in terms of our Sun Going Nova...
Before it does this...there will be predicitions about it...as the sun goes into its final fits of furry.
Now My Religion says, the world does not end...but it is taken over by Christ and God....forever!
That is my belief....and God...well God is a living God...God has to eat...God needs/Food energy like everything else living needs.
Now Moses, talked to a plant once upon a time...could be a line or path not many consider to be God...or connected to God...the Burning Bush...when sown sinlessly...creates Holy Ground for God to put his foot down on....perhaps?...so a connection, and or doorway...or pathway is presented in the Bible....about a certain Plant....Being on Holy Ground or making it holy...
And so Your Part of your answers may be beneth your feet, when you walk on God...or stand on God ...Holy Ground.....Any connections to that God?. Remove thy sandles from thy feet, and connect to the eco systems...Holy Ground...and the spirit moves into you......Perhaps something to be mindful of...before spewing out that God is non existant, or leaves a few words and takes off....
Just saying...
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That is a silly argument in my opinion but let's agree that we disagree....But I mean any miracles or things like god did in the beginning of the religion...You would think that he would appear or create a miracle in any of these 10,000 religions but the answer is of course a big......no.......
