Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This article discusses something I have observed and have been troubled by. A combination of the clannishness of religious establishment insiders, the pandemic and,high membership costs (or heavy pressure for "voluntary" donations fuels this problem. The article mentions the pandemic but not the other causes I think are equally important.
I think many churches and synagogues (I am Jewish) operate almost as clubs. While theoretically open to all, talking to clergy or well-established members is a real challenge. Quite frankly many of those are quite willing to give you a good smile or elbow-bump, but just try engaging in a discussion of the meaning of G-d, the afterlife, or even the place of the institution in the community. My 76 year old professional colleague calls the clergy "pontificating hypocrites."
One issue is an intellectual difficulty educated people have with organized religion. Personally, I find real value in the civil society that congregate worship and activity creates. A few years ago, I read The Earthbound Parent: How (and Why) to Raise Your Little Angels Without Religion by Richard A. Conn Jr., a former high-school classmate. this book advocates raising children without organized religion. I started to be persuaded by the book. One of the first things I did was went back to my synagogue, and decided right away that discarding the civil society it creates was not worth it.
In addition to clubbiness, other challenges exist. One, obviously, is cost. For dues-based congregations, costs that exceed $3500 a year make affiliating a major commitment and decision. See another thread I OP'd, The Problem of Declining Synagogue Membership.Another is the pandemic. Congregations are still struggling to reopen. Even the ones that are open, such as mine, are open at prescribed times for worship only, and with both vaccination and mask requirements. The library is not open, nor are there lectures or other activities. This has accelerated the existing slow decline into a greased skid. What the article says is that many are finding spirituality in "alternative" ways. I question those alternatives' staying power.
Can someone please tell me I am wrong, and not to worry?
I was raised Catholic and I think religious education through grammar school (grades 1 to 8) is a good thing for children and pretty much all the religious instruction a person needs. That's probably true for people raised Jewish as well. At that point a person is old enough to chart their own spiritual path. Generally speaking that does not necessarily mean active participation in a church on a regular basis.
I raised my three children Catholic and they went to public schools and religious instruction on Saturdays through the 7th grade when they received confirmation. The same is true for my grandchildren. After that they stopped going to church.
As an adult I have availed myself of the church for weddings, baptisms, first communions, confirmations, funerals and (when I was in hospital) the last rites. I am a believer, but don't feel the need to participate in regular church services at all. I say my prayers every night. I believe in God and the saints and even that the souls of the departed live on in my mind. I pray to all of them. I'm 75 and have been doing that all my life.
If as an adult you need a church to tell you to believe in God, then you really don't believe. Churches are actually a business, the same way medicine and the courts and schools are a business. In all cases, the needs of the people making a living in those businesses are the first priority. Family and friends (and co-workers before I retired) is all I have needed.
P.S. The link to the article you mentioned is expired.
If as an adult you need a church to tell you to believe in God, then you really don't believe. Churches are actually a business, the same way medicine and the courts and schools are a business. In all cases, the needs of the people making a living in those businesses are the first priority.
This was overall a great post, which I appreciate. I do not use my synagogue to tell me to believe in G-d. I consider worship to be a community or collective activity and find it a powerful experience. Also, I value hearing clergy and lay views on religious issues in Rabbinic, Cantorial or even during the summer lay sermons.
This was overall a great post, which I appreciate. I do not use my synagogue to tell me to believe in G-d. I consider worship to be a community or collective activity and find it a powerful experience. Also, I value hearing clergy and lay views on religious issues in Rabbinic, Cantorial or even during the summer lay sermons.
Thank you. To me worship has always been a private matter. About 30 years ago I spent the summer playing guitar with a small group on the inside of the alter rail at Sunday high Mass. There was always a big group in attendance, over a thousand people. At one point it hit me that the mass was actually a performance, we and the clergy were the performers, the alter was the stage, the congregation was the audience, the offerings were the tickets. It was show business.
I know many feel good about participating in church services, many others don't feel it has anything of value for them.
I was raised Catholic and the rituals were the last connection I had to the church before I left. Interestingly you see in some Protestant low church denominations an increasing adoption of high church rituals, I think for the reason that rituals provide a connection to the past and an allegorical view of the divine that is more accessible than actual belief.
As to why people are leaving religions I think the answer is obvious and has been known in some circles for centuries. The internet has accelerated this trend. I think this trend is terminal for current religions. As for religion in the Durkheimian sense, I think newer replacements will rise in time.
Personally I never got much out of the congregational community. That is mostly my personality, but it's also a symptom of modern preference for cosmopolitan anonymity over parochial familiarity.
Why would a religious community drive away people besides the obvious belief problem? Well why do some people leave small towns? Narrow horizons, gossip, pettiness, and boredom with the same-ol-same-ol.
The modern sensibility is to eschew communities, for all these reasons, and for worse reasons as well.
I agree, the rituals gave a sense of serenity that encouraged private prayer. The incense, the bells, the stained glass and statues. What I would suppose is the atmosphere in a Buddhist temple.
One of the changes I didn't care for was the shaking of hands of the parishioners around me. It always felt forced and uncomfortable to me.
I'm also not much of a joiner, didn't want to join a fraternity, or stick around for the Knights of Columbus or any other social organizations.
I was a college athlete, but in two quite solitary sports, rowing and fencing. In rowing you do have to be in perfect synchronization with the oarsmen in front of you, but it's like long distance running, in that it all is happening in your own head, an all out effort with every stroke. Fencing is a series of fast moves and counter moves, and feints, a blitz that is over in a minute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist
I was raised Catholic and the rituals were the last connection I had to the church before I left. Interestingly you see in some Protestant low church denominations an increasing adoption of high church rituals, I think for the reason that rituals provide a connection to the past and an allegorical view of the divine that is more accessible than actual belief.
As to why people are leaving religions I think the answer is obvious and has been known in some circles for centuries. The internet has accelerated this trend. I think this trend is terminal for current religions. As for religion in the Durkheimian sense, I think newer replacements will rise in time.
Personally I never got much out of the congregational community. That is mostly my personality, but it's also a symptom of modern preference for cosmopolitan anonymity over parochial familiarity.
Why would a religious community drive away people besides the obvious belief problem? Well why do some people leave small towns? Narrow horizons, gossip, pettiness, and boredom with the same-ol-same-ol.
The modern sensibility is to eschew communities, for all these reasons, and for worse reasons as well.
One of the changes I didn't care for was the shaking of hands of the parishioners around me. It always felt forced and uncomfortable to me.
One of the customs that seems to have been trumped by the pandemic was the linking of arms during the prayer for healing and/or the final song at the end. I was never a fan and often didn't participate. And that had nothing to do with contagion. I just don't like to make public displays of affection to total strangers.
One could - and should - leave religion, but spirituality is always there as the authentic and natural way, and alternative, to the lost ways of bumbling mankind. It's just you and the higher power and universe, with no other human intruding and f-ing it up.
Some "throw out the baby with the bath water", and go from one extreme to the other (off-balance with religion, off-balance with atheism), while going around what might be the healthiest path and balance awaiting them (subtly and without bravado). Mankind yells and revels in dysfunction and perpetual decay. The universe has harmony and peace, in cosmic continuance.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 10-05-2021 at 09:44 AM..
This article discusses something I have observed and have been troubled by. A combination of the clannishness of religious establishment insiders, the pandemic and,high membership costs (or heavy pressure for "voluntary" donations fuels this problem. The article mentions the pandemic but not the other causes I think are equally important.
I think many churches and synagogues (I am Jewish) operate almost as clubs. While theoretically open to all, talking to clergy or well-established members is a real challenge. Quite frankly many of those are quite willing to give you a good smile or elbow-bump, but just try engaging in a discussion of the meaning of G-d, the afterlife, or even the place of the institution in the community. My 76 year old professional colleague calls the clergy "pontificating hypocrites."
One issue is an intellectual difficulty educated people have with organized religion. Personally, I find real value in the civil society that congregate worship and activity creates. A few years ago, I read The Earthbound Parent: How (and Why) to Raise Your Little Angels Without Religion by Richard A. Conn Jr., a former high-school classmate. this book advocates raising children without organized religion. I started to be persuaded by the book. One of the first things I did was went back to my synagogue, and decided right away that discarding the civil society it creates was not worth it.
In addition to clubbiness, other challenges exist. One, obviously, is cost. For dues-based congregations, costs that exceed $3500 a year make affiliating a major commitment and decision. See another thread I OP'd, The Problem of Declining Synagogue Membership.Another is the pandemic. Congregations are still struggling to reopen. Even the ones that are open, such as mine, are open at prescribed times for worship only, and with both vaccination and mask requirements. The library is not open, nor are there lectures or other activities. This has accelerated the existing slow decline into a greased skid. What the article says is that many are finding spirituality in "alternative" ways. I question those alternatives' staying power.
Can someone please tell me I am wrong, and not to worry?
Interesting. Thank you...
I couldn't seem to connect to the link or article you reference, but no matter. Your OP offers plenty enough "room for thought" to address your concerns. I don't know about you being right or wrong (though I have my opinions about this sort of thing), I don't think you have good reason to worry.
You say you are Jewish. Do you believe in Judaism over the other religions? Are you referring to just what is happening to Judaism or all religions? Are other religions within the scope of consideration for you? Of course you know that many people who have taken their "spiritual journey" have explored many religions before deciding which one suits them best.
I was raised a Catholic and got all that sort of early education by way of Bible study, Holy First Communion and regular visits to church on Sundays. Then later I was exposed to other churches as a result of associating with people of different faiths. Of course I have Jewish friends as well. Some who believe in Judaism and some who don't.
Ultimately I became an atheist. This might be the primary reason I suggest you don't have much to worry about, but of course I think you are referring to what you personally need from a social or emotional standpoint. Those sorts of needs are very personal indeed that I'm not sure logic or reason can properly address with people who seem needing of religion generally speaking.
There are many reasons I rejected religion a long time ago. Some that you touch upon, but at the same time I understand the want to have intelligent fulfilling engagement with other people about things that matter to us. I certainly have that want as well, but my experience with religions is that religion is not where it's at for me. Not by a long shot.
There are other paths to consider if ultimately one finds their church or any church doesn't cut it...
Good luck finding your new path in any case! Sincerely, LM
One could - and should - leave religion, but spirituality is always there as the authentic and natural way, and alternative, to the lost ways of bumbling mankind. It's just you and the higher power and universe, with no other human intruding and f-ing it up.
Some "throw out the baby with the bath water", and go from one extreme to the other (off-balance with religion, off-balance with atheism), while going around what might be the healthiest path and balance awaiting them (subtly and without bravado). Mankind yells and revels in dysfunction and perpetual decay. The universe has harmony and peace, in cosmic continuance.
I agree. No doubt the reliance on our fellow human beings to not muck things up is something like relying on carnivores not to eat meat...
I even go as far as to suggest "one could -- and should -- leave religion," but truly explore this notion of spirituality as well. Always seems to me that spirituality is the spark that religion relies upon to get started and to keep going. As such, spirituality may be part of man's problem as well. We humans are the only ones who have conjured up that notion as well.
What if there is an alternative way of thinking or feeling that doesn't need to involve any sort of supernatural phenom? I find the peace and comfort of appreciating life for what it is quite satisfying.
"Enough is as good as a feast."
All to say that sometimes I think we humans are just a tad too demanding for our own good...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
