Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jesus said from the bible in Matthew 24: 23-26......`` Look here is Christ , or there , believe it not ...for there will rise false Christ and false prophets , and will show great signs , and wonders even to deceive the very elect ...See I have told you before `If they say to you `he is in the desert, go there , or he is in the secret chambers believe it not ``............... See many will come and water down the gospel and then some will believe the water down for their itchy ears , but Jesus does not teach the poor interpretation you present here on the OP , as God is indeed righteous in all goodness , and He need His children to be in sync with Him and His character of a sinless selfless character , and the people who will never turn to God , will never be received by God , not in this life or the life to come ................ So if people do not like the gospel or the threat of hell , than that is the fear of God , and people need to conform and repent , and be free of fear of hell , as the righteous in Christ enjoy , instead of creating division by the slackers against the Justice of God and the truth and create false gospels waters down where people will indeed be lost to God and His righteousness
The problem being exposed here is that people are taking the Bible, and its teachings on what hell is, too literal. Also, hell is not just a Christian belief, every religion has some form of hell incorporated into it's teachings.
I was thinking about this. So I thought I would write some things down. Maybe it will set free some of the poor souls who live in fear.
I've been there, I know how it is to be a victim of someone's bad teachings, even if you don't realize that you're a victim. I guess that's why I am sympathetic.
Christians speak, but they are so blinded by their beliefs that they don't even notice what horrible things they say. In America, we as people (who are supposedly evil compared to God), have this rule: some punishments are considered cruel and unusual.
Supposedly God is better than people (according to Jesus from the Bible).
But, this God, who is better than us, supposedly invented a cruel an unusual punishment... for who? For those HE LOVES! It says that God loved sinners so much that he gave the life of his son for them. So that means that he loves sinners.... But then to punish them with this kind of "hell"? Just because they disobeyed or didn't believe? Christians say this with ease. Oh, yes, God is loving, but he is holy. And I guess being holy gives God the right to be unimaginably cruel to those he loves?
I could believe in Hell in the framework of discipline, as in, you love your kid but he's being a conceited spoiled brat, so you say "no desert for you," and the kid sulks but possibly behaves better later. In terms of the afterlife, you get wherever you wanna go at the end, after all kinds of reincarnation, and so Hell would be a temporary waystop (as if you couldn't live a Hell-on-Earth anyway, and learn your lesson that way) before being a completed being.
But no, we have this concept that judgement is "final". That's sort of like killing someone for petty theft. You might want to teach them stealing is wrong, but how is that gonna make any impression? He can't learn once he's dead. In terms of deterrant, first you have the finality of the act preventing any and all improvement, and second the fact that unless it was cannibalism or murder, you can't help wondering what was wrong with it in the first place.
I still attend church regularly, but I've come to my own religion, sort of as a result of not wanting to play the game by other people's rules. If some God up there wants to judge me, it should really be on my terms (not so much, I decide the rules, as I've set up one rule that something is right/wrong based on how it affects others), not because of some arbitrary "you had beer once, so now you're gonna go to hell."
Therefore, this Christianity is... just a mixture of beliefs mixed together over time. And hell was just a bad idea which got mixed into it. But really, if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. It's too awful to even consider as reality. It's too cruel to ever ascribe to a Loving Wise Entity. Be wise! And think! and do not become a slave to fear because of some nonsense created by people over time.
If something cruel and insane is all you have known from your mother's knee, it more often than not doesn't seem cruel and insane, particularly when you've already swallowed the Magic Pill that saves you from this terrible fate and are conditioned to think that others who choose not swallow the pill are just being stupid or obstinate and therefore aren't worthy of your pity.
I don't recall Christians struggling with this particular issue, at least not in FundyLand. More commonly they had fear or shame-based issues worrying that they had not really been saved or weren't sincere enough or didn't have enough faith. I think it's because fundamentalism self-selects for people who are vulnerable to and controllable by shame and guilt, as well as for people who want to be told the correct things to think. In order to say, "wait a minute, this hell thing is nuts", you have to be willing to think objectively and that is something that just doesn't happen much in fundamentalism.
If something cruel and insane is all you have known from your mother's knee, it more often than not doesn't seem cruel and insane, particularly when you've already swallowed the Magic Pill that saves you from this terrible fate and are conditioned to think that others who choose not swallow the pill are just being stupid or obstinate and therefore aren't worthy of your pity.
I don't recall Christians struggling with this particular issue, at least not in FundyLand. More commonly they had fear or shame-based issues worrying that they had not really been saved or weren't sincere enough or didn't have enough faith. I think it's because fundamentalism self-selects for people who are vulnerable to and controllable by shame and guilt, as well as for people who want to be told the correct things to think. In order to say, "wait a minute, this hell thing is nuts", you have to be willing to think objectively and that is something that just doesn't happen much in fundamentalism.
I was thinking about this. So I thought I would write some things down. Maybe it will set free some of the poor souls who live in fear.
I've been there, I know how it is to be a victim of someone's bad teachings, even if you don't realize that you're a victim. I guess that's why I am sympathetic.
Christians speak, but they are so blinded by their beliefs that they don't even notice what horrible things they say. In America, we as people (who are supposedly evil compared to God), have this rule: some punishments are considered cruel and unusual.
Supposedly God is better than people (according to Jesus from the Bible).
But, this God, who is better than us, supposedly invented a cruel an unusual punishment... for who? For those HE LOVES! It says that God loved sinners so much that he gave the life of his son for them. So that means that he loves sinners.... But then to punish them with this kind of "hell"? Just because they disobeyed or didn't believe? Christians say this with ease. Oh, yes, God is loving, but he is holy. And I guess being holy gives God the right to be unimaginably cruel to those he loves?
If Christians were not blinded, they would say: ok, so God is cruel. We have to fear and surrender because we can't do anything, he is a bully and he is more powerful than us. And he also likes to boast about how he is powerful and we are nothing (truly like a bully).
But no, Christians boast of his love! What kind of love is it that allows the ones he loves to be tortured for eternity! Did anyone even think of what "eternal torture" means? I think if they watched movies with torture and then added "eternal" factor to them, the truth would shock them into reality and open their eyes! Once they see something like that, they would not be able to call their God loving. They would have to admit that he is more like the idea of Satan.
I know that fear is the biggest motivator in Christian religion. They would be AFRAID to think this way (to even allow such thoughts into their heads). And this fear is what keeps them blinded. They are not allowed to think, for fear that God would punish them. And therefore, they are able to say nonsense because they are not realizing what they are saying: "God is so loving. But he is also holy".
(What "holy" really means is -unimaginably cruel monster who has a license to be as evil as he wants to, because he created us and he has the right to be bad and he is forcing us to say that he is loving, because if we don't, he'll punish us.) But they can't allow such thoughts into their heads because they don't want to be sent into eternal torture. And I don't blame them.
In our day and age, someone with such characteristics (as God has) would just be considered a bad person. I mean even the mafia boss loves someone, even the mafia boss could sacrifice his life for someone he really loves. But what determines whether he is good or bad person is how he treats others, those who don't do things exactly as he says. So, a mafia boss would not be good to those who disobey him. And God is not either. Except that God is much much worse. So, if mafia boss is considered a bad person, surely God is too...?
Some people say that Paul was soooo loving that he said that he rather be cut off from Christ for the sake of his brothers (in order to save them). So, you are telling me that Paul was ready to go to hell for the sake of some people? I don't think so. Paul was ok with being cut off from Christ because Paul never believed in eternal hell. He NEVER mentioned it. So where did Christians get this idea that Paul believed in hell?
Well, because one day a group of people sat down and decided to put some random books (with beliefs) together into one collection. And this collection gave birth to the religion of Christianity. Remember, the books were put together after Paul was long gone and dead.
So, first, why were the books put together into one collection (which was called THE BIBLE)?
It's because the ruler of that time wanted to make Christianity a religion of the state. But he had a problem on his hands: there were so many little different teachings within Christianity that was making all confused. Which little denomination to follow? Which was the true one? So he got together some of the leaders and had them create something unified. So the creed was born: we believe in such and such...
And then they took some of the books and put them together and said: these books belong to one faith, called Christianity. But were these people inspired by God to put the books together? No. Why not? Because while this group of Christians decided that certain books belonged in the Bible, the later group decided that the previous group was wrong and mistakenly included the "false" books. So if God inspired the book gathering, how did he allow "false" books to be put in the Bible? Or maybe God only inspired the second group? But who is to say which gathering was the inspired one?
Who can say? Who can know?
Christians arbitrarily (without proof) believe that the books were inspired. That means they have to believe whatever the books say is the truth.
Therefore, whatever is written there belongs to one faith. Therefore, if some things don't make sense, they have to be forced to make sense.
In reality, some of the things were from one faith and others were from a different one. But if you put them all together and call them "one faith", you would have to be creating something even more different.
So, some elements in the BIBLE were from one denomination, other elements were from another. Some things were from Jewish religion and some were from some others. And people were forced to make everything fit. That was the job of apologists. There was a joke: apologists are the ones who apologize for God's bad behavior. Apologists are the ones who very creatively make things fit even when they don't.
So two ideas, different ones, were put into one. So for example, the "hell" of which Jesus was talking about was ASCRIBED to Paul. So even though Paul himself never mentioned it, it was ASSUMED that Paul (since he was in the Bible) must have believed everything in these books (in the Bible).
But hello, Paul wasn't even alive when the Bible was created! We have no idea if Paul believed in all the things which were in the books of the Bible. Who knows what Paul believed exactly. We can only go by a few of his letters. As I said, there were too many sects and denominations during the first Christians' days and later.
But one thing is clear: Paul never mentioned hell (only dying) and therefore he did not believe in hell. And the second proof for that is that he was willing to be cut off from Christ. If he believed in hell, I don't think he would be willing then.
We don't know how much of Jesus' teachings (as written in the gospels) Paul really believed. We can't really truly know which parts Paul believed. We do know that Paul and Peter sometimes disagreed in their beliefs. We do know that Paul even boasted that his teachings came straight from his revelations from God, not from Jesus' disciples. So how similar were they? Only "god" knows so to speak.
So, hell mentioned in the gospels, was that a hell of our days? Most likely not. Jesus was speaking to Jews and Jesus was Jewish also. (although not a traditional Jew). Jesus spoke to them in their context. And in their context, the word hell was referring to the fire where the criminals were burned and various animals and garbage. And the word hell was also referring to the fact that Jews believed that if your soul is not buried (but is burned), it will get lost, disappear. So THAT'S the reason they were afraid of being burned. NOT because of eternal torture.
Eternal torture idea was born within Greek Mythology. There was a king of Hades (hell), who tortured souls in the lake of fire.
So hell mentioned in the gospels even is not the same hell as mentioned in the Greek Mythology. And Paul never mentioned hell at all. But these two things, misunderstood, were put together and it was assumed that hell was the same as Greek Hell and since Paul was in the Bible, that must mean he believed in all that also. Plus John of the Bible added some "eternal lake of fire" into his texts. Who knows where he got his ideas. Most likely he put together many different ones and made soup out of everything. That's probably why Revelation doesn't make sense.
So the Bible came to be because a ruler of the country wanted people to unify their beliefs. The books were added by people and were not inspired by God because if they were, they wouldn't be changed later. It was assumed that Paul believed in hell only because Paul's writings ended up in the same books which may have mentioned "hell" in other books. But even that is questionable because that "hell" may not be the same as modern idea of hell.
Therefore, this Christianity is... just a mixture of beliefs mixed together over time. And hell was just a bad idea which got mixed into it. But really, if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. It's too awful to even consider as reality. It's too cruel to ever ascribe to a Loving Wise Entity. Be wise! And think! and do not become a slave to fear because of some nonsense created by people over time.
Excellent post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
The only reason I think Hell is real is because the Bible speaks of it.
This is very sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
If something cruel and insane is all you have known from your mother's knee, it more often than not doesn't seem cruel and insane, particularly when you've already swallowed the Magic Pill that saves you from this terrible fate and are conditioned to think that others who choose not swallow the pill are just being stupid or obstinate and therefore aren't worthy of your pity.
I don't recall Christians struggling with this particular issue, at least not in FundyLand. More commonly they had fear or shame-based issues worrying that they had not really been saved or weren't sincere enough or didn't have enough faith. I think it's because fundamentalism self-selects for people who are vulnerable to and controllable by shame and guilt, as well as for people who want to be told the correct things to think. In order to say, "wait a minute, this hell thing is nuts", you have to be willing to think objectively and that is something that just doesn't happen much in fundamentalism.
This is insightful as usual, mordant. The things we learn early on become gestalt sooner. Gestalts cannot be changed. This is why the churches want to get people indoctrinated as early as possible. The brain is not fully equipped for sound reasoning. Actually the brain does not acquire that capability until much later in life. It reaches full physiological maturity at approximately 25 years old or so. But it is capable of forming gestalts from the very beginning. . . that is why learning language is so easy the younger we are..
If something cruel and insane is all you have known from your mother's knee, it more often than not doesn't seem cruel and insane, particularly when you've already swallowed the Magic Pill that saves you from this terrible fate and are conditioned to think that others who choose not swallow the pill are just being stupid or obstinate and therefore aren't worthy of your pity.
I don't recall Christians struggling with this particular issue, at least not in FundyLand. More commonly they had fear or shame-based issues worrying that they had not really been saved or weren't sincere enough or didn't have enough faith. I think it's because fundamentalism self-selects for people who are vulnerable to and controllable by shame and guilt, as well as for people who want to be told the correct things to think. In order to say, "wait a minute, this hell thing is nuts", you have to be willing to think objectively and that is something that just doesn't happen much in fundamentalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
Truth.
I second that.
The only way Hell is plausible is (a) if afterlife is something you make, and Hell is you punishing yourself until you figure out how to stop the guilt (in which case, it gives a plausible explanation for Jesus being a Savior, he's there to save you from yourself), or (b) a temporary correction in hopes you eventually become a better creation.
Quote:
This is insightful as usual, mordant. The things we learn early on become gestalt sooner. Gestalts cannot be changed. This is why the churches want to get people indoctrinated as early as possible. The brain is not fully equipped for sound reasoning. Actually the brain does not acquire that capability until much later in life. It reaches full physiological maturity at approximately 25 years old or so. But it is capable of forming gestalts from the very beginning. . . that is why learning language is so easy the younger we are..
I don't know about "cannot." It is very hard. You have to basically learn that although you feel a certain way, other people don't.
I read a series of Ayn Rand and Goodkind books, and eventually learned that it's not right to have people try to live your life for you. So it's possible. But I still am more likely than not to respect other's boundaries over mine.
Therefore, this Christianity is... just a mixture of beliefs mixed together over time. And hell was just a bad idea which got mixed into it. But really, if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. It's too awful to even consider as reality. It's too cruel to ever ascribe to a Loving Wise Entity. Be wise! And think! and do not become a slave to fear because of some nonsense created by people over time.
I struggle with the idea of hell. It really doesn't make any sense objectively, especially tied in with the doctrine of predestination--why would God create people just to send to hell?? What I love about my denomination is their doctrine of Christian Liberty and the fact that it is clear even in their own doctrine that not every church is pure, that they all have impurities. Therefore I take my understanding from Scripture that hell is a bad place. But is it eternal torture? I will say that I really don't know; I certainly hope not. But God is so far from my ability to comprehend, and the hell factor is just something I don't comprehend and probably will never. I just can't stand to think of those that I know and who are not really "bad" people (according to society's standards), just don't believe in God, being tortured for eternity. I just can't be okay with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I think Visio (If I may pinch - hit as he hasn't responded) is suggesting that God is beyond human notions of what it just.
I feel that that is exactly what he is saying. The idea might be an unpopular one (and I'm not trying to sound mean or argumentative or anything, 'cause that's not what I'm trying to do), but I think what he's trying to say is that we can't understand God based on our limited perceptions of what is just and right. If we take God according to our standards of justice, hell and eternal torment (especially tied in with predestination) is beyond all means of argument I would say undeniably unjust, on our terrms. Seems like that would turn a lot of people away from the worship of such a God, wouldn't it? Well it seems like it would to me.
It seems that perhaps a lot of people would be more alright with the mind of a person according to this understanding, for they feel that they would be able to act in a more just manner than this God that in their understanding would unjustly torment people [I'd like to mention again that I'm not trying to argue, I'm just bringing up ideas as they come to me (for I've got a whole lot of learning to do yet), in what I hope is a respectful and courteous manner. And If I've offended someone, I hope they will let me know in what manner, so that I can try to avoid it in any further posts I may write. Thanks.].
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
