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2. I expressed concern it might happen. I remember what happened to American Japanese during WW2 and I am quite familiar with happened to Native Americans and the current plight of Native Americans on the Lakota resevations.. I have seen what happened to non-White people before the 1960s.
3. I can see the distrust some Americans have of all Muslims based upon what they see in some Islamic Nations.
4. I see the fear some people have of all Muslims.
Fear does lead to extreme actions in the name of protection. that can easily lead to " Do not be surprised if in the near future it becomes hazardous to be a Muslim in the USA"
Woodrow, the nasty things that have happened to Muslims in the US are usually by people who are mentally deranged or have very limited mental ability. Look at the Sikhs and Hindus that have been attacked by these crazies, thinking they were Muslims. Some of these attacks came from young kids with poor education. That's not offered by way of an excuse, but the majority of people do not hate Muslims, and it will never become official policy. There are those who will stand up to the radicals and we just need to see more of that. The way Christians publically disown Christian Identity and the Westboro Church.
Woodrow, the nasty things that have happened to Muslims in the US are usually by people who are mentally deranged or have very limited mental ability. Look at the Sikhs and Hindus that have been attacked by these crazies, thinking they were Muslims. Some of these attacks came from young kids with poor education. That's not offered by way of an excuse, but the majority of people do not hate Muslims, and it will never become official policy. There are those who will stand up to the radicals and we just need to see more of that. The way Christians publically disown Christian Identity and the Westboro Church.
I do basically have trust in the goodness of people. Just have memories of my younger days back in the 1940s and 1950s.
1. I did not say it was happening.
2. I expressed concern it might happen. I remember what happened to American Japanese during WW2 and I am quite familiar with happened to Native Americans and the current plight of Native Americans on the Lakota resevations.. I have seen what happened to non-White people before the 1960s.
3. I can see the distrust some Americans have of all Muslims based upon what they see in some Islamic Nations.
4. I see the fear some people have of all Muslims.
Fear does lead to extreme actions in the name of protection. that can easily lead to " Do not be surprised if in the near future it becomes hazardous to be a Muslim in the USA"
Sadly I agree with your concerns, Wood . . . but you place the potential blame for it in the wrong place. It is BECAUSE you have no central authority in Islam to articulate what IS and what IS NOT acceptable behavior and worship. Without a central authoritative condemnation of terrorism IN THE NAME of Islam . . . and enforced formally and informally by sanctions within the Muslim communities themselves . . . Muslims will continue to represent legitimate targets of fear and concern, period.
Perhaps it is time for a re-imagining of the Islamic faith and the legitimacy of its participants and their presumed destiny. I would welcome a "Woodrow Mohammed" version as the dominant Muslim religion world-wide. Absent such a reorganization and re-imagining . . . I suspect your statement in bold has a high probability of being realized.
Sadly I agree with your concerns, Wood . . . but you place the potential blame for it in the wrong place. It is BECAUSE you have no central authority in Islam to articulate what IS and what IS NOT acceptable behavior and worship. Without a central authoritative condemnation of terrorism IN THE NAME of Islam . . . and enforced formally and informally by sanctions within the Muslim communities themselves . . . Muslims will continue to represent legitimate targets of fear and concern, period.
Can you imagine the out cries of "Sharia" if a strong Muslim leader emerged in a community.
As far as I know nearly every Imam in the USA does condemn terrorism. There are Fatwas denouncing it almost Daily it is probably the most common Khutbah(Sermon) given at Jummah (Required Friday Mosque attendance)
One thing that is needed is more Mosques. But few Muslims can afford to start a Mosque and often when someone attempts to start one it is met with condemnation. Until there are More Mosques and Islamic Centers the majority of US Muslims will be learning about Islam from family and friends.
Today there are an estimated 2100 Mosques and Islamic centers in the USA Probably only enough to serve about 1/10 of the US Muslims. Using ND as an example we have 8000 Muslims and 7 Mosques. There are no full time Imams in ND. The largest ND Mosque can hold 400 people the smallest one can hold 8 The rest of them seem to have room for 10-25 Attempts at building any additional Mosques has been met with Public outcry. Yet without Mosques young Muslims will be learning Family culture and not Islam. ,Also there are probably less than 1000 full time Imams in the US. Nearly every Mosque does without an Imam and it is up to the oldest person present to lead the prayers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Perhaps it is time for a re-imagining of the Islamic faith and the legitimacy of its participants and their presumed destiny. I would welcome a "Woodrow Mohammed" version as the dominant Muslim religion world-wide. Absent such a reorganization and re-imagining . . . I suspect your statement in bold has a high probability of being realized.
While there is a need for re-imaging, that is a two way street. One realistic thing non-Muslims need to see that as a group we are neither large enough nor connected enough to pose any organized threat. Another is to know most of us are Peaceful
Us Muslim through our action need to demonstrate that we do not condone terrorism. We do need to encourage more Muslims to step up and take on the role of being Imams. Preferably with a good Islamic education. There are very few schools in the world that specifically train Imams. Many Imams have no formal training in Islam.
Sadly until there is more mutual understanding the possibility for my statement to come true, increases as time passes. Fear of the unknown does scare people and Muslims are still an Unknown to many Americans. Fear brings out extreme actions the best of people
Think how dangerous it must be in this county to stand up to injustice.
It is encouraging to see this sort of thing. I hope it becomes a broader trend across all Muslim nations. I've always been amazed at the general complacency of Muslims in the Middle East when their so-called fellow Muslims are burning, raping, kidnapping, beheading, blowing up and terrorizing Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Baha'i, Jews, etc. I'd have thought that the saner majority would have given more outward expression to their outrage about Islam's reputation being dragged through the mud long ago. Hope to see more and more of this.
I seem to have missed the part that tells me to hate Christians, Jews and all non-Believers. Probably because I got all wrapped up in in the parts were I am commanded not to be an aggressor and to treat all people kindly. Come to think of it that is what every Muslim I know believes.
Sorry, but neither I nor anyone I know meets your criteria of a Muslim. We also seem to be reading the Qur'an and Ahadith differently than you do.
Abu Dawud 41.4815
Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend.
Quran 1.5-7
Sahih International
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
Sahih International
Guide us to the straight path -
Sahih International
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
Mohammed on the Quranic verses above
Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 12, Number 749:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven.
Sahih Muslim Book 37 -
6665
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
6666
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).
6668
Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.
Quran chapter 98
98.6
Sahih International
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
98.7
Sahih International
Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend.
While it probably is a good idea to be selective in who you choose as friends. This Hadith has nothing to do with Saddiq (the English concept of friend) the word being translated to friend is Wali it has no English equivalent, best described as a very deep friend who will protect you and lead you properly in Islam.
I don't think it would be very fair to ask a Christian friend to lead me in following Islam properly. I would never ask a non-Muslim friend to be my wali and even if I did I doubt any of my non-Muslim friends would want to be my Wali.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong30
Quran 1.5-7
Sahih International
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
Sahih International
Guide us to the straight path -
Sahih International
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
Mohammed on the Quranic verses above
Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 12, Number 749:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven.
All the above is related to al-Fatiha which reads as:
1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. 2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). 3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. 4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) 5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything). 6. Guide us to the Straight Way 7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
The words in Parenthesis are not in the surah but added as examples by the translator. They do not appear in the Arabic.
However in reading the whole thing you may notice it is not much different from the "Lord's Prayer"
We do use this prayer in our daily prayers and recite it before each Rakkat.
The Hadith in the quote is informing us that when using it as a prayer we are to say Ameen, amin, Amen at the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong30
Sahih Muslim Book 37 -
6665
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.
6666
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).
6668
Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.
I am not too certain about the reliability of those ahadit. Although the Ahadith collected by Muslim are Sahih (Having high authenticity,) meaning it has been verified that abu Musa and abu Burda did write them. the reliability is low as there are no witnesses verifying they accuratly quoted Muhammad(saws) also neither seems to be quoting but rather giving an opinion. I have not read any tafsir on them, but based on their low reliability I have doubts Muhammad ever said either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkong30
Quran chapter 98
98.6
Sahih International
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
98.7
Sahih International
Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
Not much to get upset about there. It is only saying Hell will contain the worse of people and heaven will contain the best of people.
It does not say all "People of Scripture" will be in the fire of Hell only those only those among them who disbelieved. The Qur'an does state some Jews and Christians will be in Heaven, in several places for example:
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]2-62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians,whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
It's a fact that you don't see Christians having to line the streets to protect Muslims while they pray in a mosque in America.
You're right. It is a fact -- and a blessing -- that we live in a country where we are allowed the freedom to worship as we wish. I just wonder, though, how many Christians you would see doing what these Muslims did if it came down to that. Would you be there, Vizio?
All the above is related to al-Fatiha which reads as:
1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. 2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). 3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. 4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) 5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything). 6. Guide us to the Straight Way 7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
The words in Parenthesis are not in the surah but added as examples by the translator. They do not appear in the Arabic.
However in reading the whole thing you may notice it is not much different from the "Lord's Prayer"
We do use this prayer in our daily prayers and recite it before each Rakkat.
The Hadith in the quote is informing us that when using it as a prayer we are to say Ameen, amin, Amen at the end.
I am not too certain about the reliability of those ahadit. Although the Ahadith collected by Muslim are Sahih (Having high authenticity,) meaning it has been verified that abu Musa and abu Burda did write them. the reliability is low as there are no witnesses verifying they accuratly quoted Muhammad(saws) also neither seems to be quoting but rather giving an opinion. I have not read any tafsir on them, but based on their low reliability I have doubts Muhammad ever said either.
Not much to get upset about there. It is only saying Hell will contain the worse of people and heaven will contain the best of people.
It does not say all "People of Scripture" will be in the fire of Hell only those only those among them who disbelieved. The Qur'an does state some Jews and Christians will be in Heaven, in several places for example:
[SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]2-62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians,whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
Lord's Prayer & Al Fatiha sound similar to me too
I know what the hadith means, how Muslims pray everyday I was pointing out that Muslims insult Jews & Christians 5 times a day as ones who have gone astray, and have earned God's anger according to Mohammed
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures
How can you say Hell will contain the worst people when this verse doesn't say that, it is says whoever disbelieves among the people of the book with be sent straight to hell, they are the worst of creatures. The verse is saying all people who reject Mohammed are the worst of creatures.
Why don't you follow what Mohammed said?
Sahih Muslim Book 26 number 5389
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.
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