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I am a lifelong Atheist and I am sorry to see the cross taken down. It appeared to make a lot of people feel better and it wasn't hurting me none.
It wasn't atheist inspired just joined, it was Jewish inspired. They wanted it down as a lot of Jews served through those wars and they felt it disgraced them.
It is not a new revolt against Christianity either, it's been going on since 1989.
"The Mount Soledad cross has been the subject of litigation since 1989, when two veterans sued San Diego to get it off city land. In 2006, Congress intervened in the dispute, resulting in the federal government taking ownership of the property.
A group of plaintiffs, including the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America, then sued. The U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals court ruled that the dominance of the cross conveyed a message of government endorsement of religion"
This is from his article. Moderator cut: deleted
Last edited by june 7th; 12-14-2013 at 06:26 AM..
Reason: Accusing any other member of the forum as being a troll is a personal attack upon that member.
I find it hard to understand why one's life must be so pathetic that they would be so bothered by such a thing as to file a law suit.
It might be a smaller battle in a larger war. People do tend to draw a line in the sand at arbitrary and odd points.
You know if I drove down the road where I live and tossed two planks of wood out my window onto the side of a public street.... I would be prosecuted for littering and illegal dumping?
Yet if I pulled over, hammered those self same pieces of wood into a Crucifix shape, and impaled them into the dirt and drove off... it would be perfectly legal.
There is a disparity there for example that needs to be addressed strongly. No longer should people be able to wantonly flaunt laws solely because they cry "religion" while they do so.
Ben Stein has, as a Jew, been quite vocal about having no problem with a Christmas tree being prominently displayed, or being wished "Merry Christmas". It's the culture he lives in. It's funny how stuff like this happened for 200 years before some busybodies started suing.
I think you mean it's taken 200 years for someone to win a lawsuit like this. Ahhhh, times are changing, isn't it wonderful.
This monument has been up since 1954 and now, all of a sudden, it is offensive. Atheistic America dismantling Christianity one cross at a time, all the while denying that they are on, and have been on, an anti-religious campaign across our country that won't stop until every last hint of the Christian faith has been entirely removed from public view and mind.
Ben Stein has, as a Jew, been quite vocal about having no problem with a Christmas tree being prominently displayed, or being wished "Merry Christmas". It's the culture he lives in. It's funny how stuff like this happened for 200 years before some busybodies started suing.
"Christmas" trees are an ancient pagan symbol. I think it's hilarious that fundamentalist Christians go against the Bible when they put up "Christmas" trees.
A giant 43 ft Christian crucifix being the ONLY large religious symbol over the graves of Jewish war veterans is not exactly comparable with a big decorated commercial "Xmas" tree in a public square.
What is absolute rubbish is attacking largely cultural historical monuments as if it is an establishment of religion. If nothing else, the concept of grandfathering long-standing cultural icons should be honored. The extremist anti-religion groups are NOT operating in good faith with respect for and acknowledgment of existing expressions of cultural traditions. Trying to remake history by these legal attacks is unconscionable extremism. What was . . . was. The legal efforts should focus on the present and future, period. I find this revisionist nonsense obnoxious in the extreme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz
Suddenly? What do you mean, 'suddenly'?
Did you even read the article? They've been trying to remove it since 1989. 24 years is hardly 'suddenly'.
It was there for 35 years and applied to the generation that was memorialized . . . so what was the impetus to remove it by the generation in 1989? What is the impetus for the generation in 2013? It has nothing to do with them! These obnoxious busybodies using the legal system to scratch their particular itch in pretense of defending some Constitutional principle deserve no respect whatsoever. They are simply troublemakers attacking the past as if it is somehow helping the future. What is done is done. A focus on present and future circumstances is understandable. This attack on the past is NOT!
"Christmas" trees are an ancient pagan symbol. I think it's hilarious that fundamentalist Christians go against the Bible when they put up "Christmas" trees.
A giant 43 ft Christian crucifix being the ONLY large religious symbol over the graves of Jewish war veterans is not exactly comparable with a big decorated commercial "Xmas" tree in a public square.
The current cross on Mount Soledad was erected in 1954. It was officially named the Mount Soledad Easter Cross. For example, a 1985 map of the American Automobile Association of the San Diego area identifies the cross as the “Mt. Soledad Easter Cross.” Similarly, the Yellow Pages, maps, and the U.S. Department of Commerce Coast and Geodetic Survey referred to the cross as the “Easter Cross.”
It was not until it was challenged in court in 1989 that it was decided to pretend that it had nothing to do with Easter and was, rather, a war memorial. And until that time in 1989, there was nothing at the supposed memorial indicating that it was a memorial - the plaque proclaiming it to be a war memorial was only added in 1989 as part of the "It's not a religious symbol at all!" charade.
The presence of the cross on public property is a blatant violation of the Lemon test (for those who at least pretend to care one whit about the Constitution): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
And there is bipartisan judicial agreement on this:
*Federal Judge Larry Burns, who ordered on 12/12/2013 that the cross be removed, was appointed by President George W. Bush.
*Federal Judge Gordon Thompson, who originally found the cross in violation of both the United States and California constitutions in 1991, was appointed by President Richard Nixon.
*The three-judge Circuit Court panel that unanimously ruled that the city of San Diego's attempted transfer of the land containing the cross to a private party violated both state and federal constitutions included judges appointed by Presidents Carter, Reagan and Clinton.
*Finally, that decision was appealed to the United States Supreme Court, which refused in 2003 to hear the case - since it only takes four Justices to grant cert, that means that on a court with 7 of 9 Justices appointed by Republican Presidents (Reagan 3, GHW Bush 2, Ford and Nixon 1 apiece), supporters of the cross on Mt. Soledad couldn't even scrounge up 4 votes to bring the case before the high court.
In 2004, the Mount Soledad Presbyterian Church’s elders vote unanimously to accept the cross if it is determined by court order that it must be moved.
And this map shows just how close that church is to the present site of the cross:
So, there's a problem - the position of the privately-owned cross on public land is a constitutional violation.
There's also a very easy solution - move the cross to a very nearby church that will happily take it.
Nobody is trying to dismantle christianity. People who are not christians have the right to not have it shoved down their throats.
What, by taking crosses out of cemeteries and away from people that have long since been buried there? Did you ever think that the people who were buried there may have wanted to be buried under a cross of their faith? It was alright to have up there to begin with. What changed? What comes next, going through "public" cemeteries and breaking the crosses off of individual headstones? Don't give me that B.S. that no one is trying to dismantle Christianity. Take a look at what athiests are doing across our country. Do you want me to start listing news articles to refresh your memory? This by far is NOT the first incident like this by a long shot in case you haven't watched the news. Shoving it down whose throat by the way. The way the radical left is shoving homosexuality/lesbianism/transgender down everyone's throats by insisting our public schools change to accomodate their lifestyles and marching in "gay pride" parades across the country to show off their lifestyles? It is okay though to display that kind of "private behavior" and shove it in everyone's face though isn't it?
How does one person stuff so much hate and crazy into a single post?
Didn't you read the part of the article where it was Jewish Vets who wanted the cross removed?
Name one instance of anyone ever saying that crosses should be removed from headstones.
Why are you dragging homosexuality in to the argument? You are clearly showing you can't tell that failing to keep your religion private is what is causing the persecution of LGBT community. You have no right to use your mythology to tell other people how they should live their lives. Keep your fundamentalist beliefs to yourself and don't expect the rest of the world to share your un-Christ like bigotry. What is someone like you doing at a Gay Pride parade? Are you one of the homophobes who are secretly gay and denying your feelings?
Those highway signs merely denote the individuals/groups that keep up a stretch of highway. Naming a group doing a secular task (tidying a roadway) is not analogous to offering land for a large religious symbol.
What manderly6 said. And when you're laughed out of court, do come back and tell us all about it. (I'm pretending that you're not just blowing smoke here - which, of course, you are)
PS - If (in your fantasy-world based on law that doesn't actually exist) you managed to get all groups with a religious basis removed from such signs, the vast majority of those groups would be Christian affiliated. Ponder that.
Last edited by june 7th; 12-14-2013 at 06:41 AM..
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