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I went to grade school with a kid named Gus. He was famed for never having any comeback to any insult directed his way except "No, you!" If someone said "Gus, you've got mustard all over your shirt, you're the sloppiest eater of all time", Gus could be relied upon, with 100 % fidelity, to say "No! You're the sloppiest eater of all time!" Eventually this technique became known as "Gussing" a person and was an in joke in our class for years.
Haven't had any contact with Gus since grade school, but now I am wondering....by any chance are you Gus?
and yet it would seem that some "religious people" will perpetuate a lie so easily and so freely and give no thought or care for what they say, hmmmmm... Makes you wonder just what kind of motive there is behind their spoken words.
A guy lives in a neighborhood. He's not liked and always getting the blamed for whatever crime occurs there. A child is murdered. The neighbors immediately single out the guy and confront him. They ask, "Did you do it? He replies, "Of course I did it! I'm a child killer!"
How do you interpret it? If you're a fundy you rationalize, "He just sick of being accused of everything bad that happens in the town and finally exploded with a sarcastic retort." Another person says, "No, he's admitting he killed the child."
So is Paul being sarcastic or is he admitting that sometimes it's the end result that counts?
Translated: "Okay, so I lie in the message I preach. Doesn't the end, souls being won to Christ, justify the means (lying) I employ?"
Very honest and very bold of Paul. We know that he preached a gospel (salvation by faith alone) completely contrary to Jesus' gospel (salvation and works) and reiterated by James, His brother (salvation and works). James should have had better knowledge of Jesus' message than Paul, James having lived with Jesus and hearing Him preach.
Well, at least Paul comes clean about his lie. The problem is 99% of Christians are so ignorant about what is really in the Bible they have no clue. I was recently talking to my cousin, a passionate fundy, about the fallacy of Matthew's "He shall be called a Nazarene" and she had absolutely no idea about the verse. Her response, "Really, I didn't know that."
thrillobyte, I am not a great fan of most of Paul's writing--primarily because fundamentalists have misapplied it so frequently.
But with your quote of Romans 3:7--OUT OF CONTEXT--you have become a fundamentalist with a different objective and Vizio has every right to call you on it.
Let's review the entire section of Romans 3:5-8 (NIV)
Quote:
But if our righteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing His wrath upon us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases His glory, why am I condemned as a sinner?" Why not say---as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say---"Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is deserved.
The entire message of those few verses in contrary to what you have declared. Paul was making a defense against such idiotic arguments--one cannot claim innocence by being evil because it makes God appear greater and more truthful.
I agree with your thoughts concerning James being more likely to have understood the message of Jesus than did Paul. But resorting to fundamentalist tactics of lifting verses from context is not the mark of a scholar.
thrillobyte, I am not a great fan of most of Paul's writing--primarily because fundamentalists have misapplied it so frequently.
But with your quote of Romans 3:7--OUT OF CONTEXT--you have become a fundamentalist with a different objective and Vizio has every right to call you on it.
Let's review the entire section of Romans 3:5-8 (NIV)
The entire message of those few verses in contrary to what you have declared. Paul was making a defense against such idiotic arguments--one cannot claim innocence by being evil because it makes God appear greater and more truthful.
I agree with your thoughts concerning James being more likely to have understood the message of Jesus than did Paul. But resorting to fundamentalist tactics of lifting verses from context is not the mark of a scholar.
You see, I think there's something deeper going on here. I don't know the term for it but there are people who when, accused of something they are guilty of doing and want to deflect guilt, use sarcasm as a means of defense. So in my example of the man accused of being a child-killer, let's say he killed the child and he knows nobody can prove it, but in an attempt to divert the crowd's attention away from him, he says, "You're always coming at me when anything goes wrong, but you've never been able to prove it. Don't you get tired of always accusing me??" This sends the crowd on their way thinking, "Maybe we ARE unfairly maligning the poor guy."
I think this is what Paul was doing--using sarcasm to cover what he knew to be the truth: that he did sometimes lie in order to get out a message he so passionately believed in. You have to read a little more deeply about Paul's psychology as analyzed by forensic psychologists. They classify him a latent homosexual who hated himself for the direction his body's urges drove him to:
Quote:
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh [I serve] the law of sin.
and a pretty evident misogynist. He tells three different accounts of his conversion on the road to Damascus. He's not above telling some lies to covert people to Christianity.
and yet it would seem that some "religious people" will perpetuate a lie so easily and so freely and give no thought or care for what they say, hmmmmm... Makes you wonder just what kind of motive there is behind their spoken words.
What religious people are you referring to? I've met non-religious "spiritual" people that are liars, too. What's your point?
The OP's point is a joke. Read it in context and you can see that Paul was saying the complete opposite. So the liar isn't Paul--it's the one that can't read Paul's words in context, choosing instead to twist them.
I went to grade school with a kid named Gus. He was famed for never having any comeback to any insult directed his way except "No, you!" If someone said "Gus, you've got mustard all over your shirt, you're the sloppiest eater of all time", Gus could be relied upon, with 100 % fidelity, to say "No! You're the sloppiest eater of all time!" Eventually this technique became known as "Gussing" a person and was an in joke in our class for years.
Haven't had any contact with Gus since grade school, but now I am wondering....by any chance are you Gus?
Wait...you mean that those comments weren't about the athiests? Wow...it just fit them so well.
You see, I think there's something deeper going on here. I don't know the term for it but there are people who when, accused of something they are guilty of doing and want to deflect guilt, use sarcasm as a means of defense.
I really didn't want to waste a post here, but please know this is one of those faith building threads I see so often here. The main reason is yet another atheist runs with non-facts to make a point that he or she believes will destroy the faith of the average Christian
Paul is not saying he is a liar. It is as simple as that. It has been pointed out more than once in this thread. No one in 2000 years has ever suggested that until today, by some poster-non-biblical scholar such as yourself. One can argue that many things about Paul, but no one, except you, is suggesting he is admitting to lying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
and a pretty evident misogynist. .
From Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
The words of a misogynist? Sounds more like a man calling for equality between social classes and gender.
Sorry. Faith building stuff. Thanks.
Last edited by Mr5150; 12-28-2013 at 06:26 PM..
Reason: Good grammar is so cool!
Before you get too cranked up on this one better read the bible commentary. the context of the statement makes a difference friend. he was refering to romans 3:7 a much quoted concept about the carnal man. not himself personally.
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