Biblical Claims versus the bible and Reality (genesis, America, myths)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
With so many folk quote mining SCIENCE and Scientists, I thought it would be a good idea to collate the biblical claims against itself and the reality we know today. I will have to do a bit of bible hopscotch in this exercise and demand a verdict.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
We shall ignore the sequence of the sun and plants creation order and the second creation account. Some of the various thoughts of the age of the earth and when this happened.
Young Earth creationists have claimed that this view has its earliest roots in ancient Judaism, citing, for example, the commentary on Genesis by Ibn Ezra (c. 1089–1164).[4] Shai Cherry of Vanderbilt University notes that modern Jewish theologians have generally rejected such literal interpretations of the written text, and that even Jewish commentators who oppose some aspects of Darwinian thought generally accept scientific evidence that the Earth is much older.[16]
Precambrian (It spans from the formation of Earth around 4600 Ma (million years) ago to the beginning of the Cambrian Period, about 542 Ma) (More of my own Pics here)
The new EPICA Antarctic ice core has revealed that between 400,000 and 780,000 years ago, interglacials occupied a considerably larger proportion of each glacial/interglacial cycle, but were not as warm as subsequent interglacials.
The word 'varve' is derived from the Swedish word varv whose meanings and connotations include 'revolution', 'in layers', and 'circle'. The term first appeared as Hvarfig lera (varved clay) on the first map produced by the Geological Survey of Sweden in 1862. Initially, varve was used to describe the separate components of annual layers in glacial lakesediments, but at the 1910 Geological Congress, the Swedish geologist Gerard De Geer (1858-1943) proposed a new formal definition where varve described the whole of any annual sedimentary layer.
The Green River formation in eastern Utah is home to an estimated twenty million years worth of sedimentary layers. (source)
This demands a verdict.
Obviously, four distinctly different studies in SCIENCE cannot be colluding in some global conspiracy to fool creationists nor are their methods of calculation the same.
Thus the creation story and the biblical timeline of the age of the earth ARE MYTHS.
Something else happened to form the earth billions of years ago.
You can choose to ignore this which is wilful ignorance OR accept the bible DOES NOT explain the origins of the earth.
How do theists get around this conundrum?
The Flood.
The flood never happened as reported and we have debated that to death. In the examples above, something as cataclysmic as a global flood would be seen in them but we find, wait for it... NOTHING as reported. Furthermore, we know that no two pairs(kinds) of critters can repopulate an entire species and the time line for the biblical flood circa 2500BCE leaves just too little time to account for the known species identified and still being discovered.
This demands a verdict.
The global flood is a MYTH.
Exodus
It never happened and I have already refuted this at some length here on C-D
We have three key components disputed, the age of the earth, the flood and the exodus. It is in the exodus event that the "laws of god" were decreed. If there are no archaeological traces of 2+ million folk wandering around the desert, plus the known requirement for 2 litres of water per human per day to survive dehydration, the exodus event never happened and ergo, the laws were NEVER given at Mt Sinai.
These are 3 key issues referred to in the New testament.
Now to deal with contradictions to god's unchanging law.
The Jewish law decrees that a father should not do the dirty with a daughter in law, you can look that up for yourself. Yet we have this god descending and impregnating Mary to conceive Jesus. Of course you will argue that this is not the same thing but let us not forget the three aspects already refuted by physical evidence.
The father of creation need not have mated with his creation to make a point. After all, according to the creation story, he simply spoke everything into existence.
We are now in a situation that if the creation did not happen as reported, the aspect of original sin is moot, the repopulation of the globe post flood is meadow muffins, the laws were never really given any time as reported; then the whole Jesus story is just as fictitious as the rest of the bible.
This is a quote mine of the bible as we know it refuted by physical evidence and in the trend of YEC folk disputing evolution in like manner, please explain to us rational thinkers what is left to base a belief on creationism?
My conclusion and verdict is that the entire bible is an unreliable document and falls in the same category as ancient legends and myth, no different to the Greek, Roman and Norse gods. If you study these pagan gods, you will find many similarities for your Jesus and follows the then traditional concept of a demi god (the offspring between a god and a human)
What that really leaves you, is the Paulinist doctrines OR a religion based on selective cherry picking that has led to so many sects and divisions in the "Christian faith", each of whom are as real as the ancient religions aka man made.
Have I provided enough evidence to challenge the authenticity of your God belief?
If you say NO, then you are in fact admitting my assertion, you are simply making one up that suits your "needs" whatever may drive that need.
We are continually told that we cannot disprove God.
Well I think I have by examining the simple world around me and showing the core biblical claims regarding your "faith" are nonsense and NEVER happened.
its not a geology book or history book its literature a collection of stories to teach moral lessons.
Yup a one liner is all we can expect against a 1 hour+ post. The evidence we have refutes the biblical time line and claims and you have in fact said what I anticipated would be said, cherry picked aspects to form some doctrine of morality but regarding morality, the bible is not really a good source seeing that Jesus went against his own laws of kids having to honour their parents to hating them. A bit of consistency would have been nice but it is lacking in so many ways.
its not a geology book or history book its literature a collection of stories to teach moral lessons.
It is clearly intended to be more than that, but let's suppose you are partly right. There are many writings, stories or tomes intended to give moral instruction. We can read them and say 'that makes sense' or 'I don't agree with that'. we can evaluate.
The point about the Bible is that we can either regard it as a book of stories and evaluate the claims critically (as you should, going by your remark above) or we take it as the opinions and wishes of a creative or controlling deity and we don't have the option to decide for ourselves whether it is true or not.
But that claim has to be judged true or false. To take it as true uncritically is unacceptable - blind faith. We have to look at the claims in Genesis and exodus, the prophecies and the gospel story and the arguments of Paul. If they do not stack up then the moral exhortations are no more than the opinions of men - and OUR opinions are as good or better.
I'm explaining this so that you see why we consider it necessary to evaluate the Bible as true authority. To suggest sidelining this and just take it one more collection of moral tales either means that you don't take it as any more significant than Homer or Ovid or you do and are just trying to fool us into not using our heads in this matter.
Well I think I have by examining the simple world around me and showing the core biblical claims regarding your "faith" are nonsense and NEVER happened.
Well! Looks like we can all go down the pub then!!
Well, I am real curious: why do we kick only the Bible around as a religio-political football?
Why are we treating the Vedas and Upanishads in the same vein? After all, they are older than the tales in the Old Testament and more than likely provided a foundation for some of its tales.
Is it because we have collectively decided that the reports and tales in these are just too fantastic that they have to be myths? And can we not dismiss myths as just nonsense?
But the mythological proportions of the Bible are not regarded as myths at all. Right? For anyone to suggest that there are myths in the Bible is to invite a label of heresy and all the rights to an execution determined by the lot who decided the one is heretical.
Similarly, no one seems to want to take Native American beliefs to task.
Islam is a later religion, and yet no one wants to take on its tenets.
Or any of the hundreds of different religions that are accepted by the 7 billion residents of the Planet Earth.
And yet, curiously, the amount of time and energy spent on scriptures that only around 33% of the world's population accept--but not agree on (and sometimes to extremes)--is phenomenal.
Ta. Yes, I do recall reading that. My doubts about the Exodus are based on Ex. 13 17.
"17 When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was nearer; for God thought, ‘If the people face war, they may change their minds and return to Egypt.’ 18So God led the people by the roundabout way of the wilderness towards the Red Sea."
This dates the Exodus to the time after the philistines had established themselves in the Gaza area ad God did not want to involve the Israelites in war with them (yet).
However the evidence of inscriptions by Mereneptah (1213 1203) showed Israel as already established in an account of his campaign in Caanan - which mentions Askelon and Gezer but not the Philistines. However, he does mention fighting against the sea peoples as does his successor Ramesses III (1180's -1150's BC)who defeated them in sea battle after which they moved into Caanan and established Philistia long after Israel had already set up a state there.
Thus the Exodus account has to be wrong in having the Israelites going into Sinai to avoid the Philistines.
It's possible to say that this was a later commentator's explanation of why they didn't go direct to Caanan, but that must show that it is not a contemporary account and not based on very reliable history.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-07-2012 at 03:55 AM..
Reason: avoid, not avid
Islam adopt the same concepts as the Jews and xians regarding creation, flood, (some laws redacted to suit their own culture) so this thread covers the majority of theists.
Even so Islam and other faiths are pretty much regional and are not politicizing their myths worldwide or are in a position to make war about them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
(
