People are appointed to salvation, if not, how do you explain this verse? (grace, disciples)

[LoveWisdom]

I started off with one purpose in mind, but finished else where. I ended up writing from the Christian perspective this time. I am an interesting combination. I used to know Christianity by heart (and deeply). And now I know the outside perspective as well. And I enjoyed both perspectives (each in their own time).

Many Christians believe that they have free will whether to reject God or to choose him. But these verses seem to imply that God is the one who chooses.

Mat 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Rom 9:11-18 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." ...For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
...Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Here it says that only those who were "to be saved" believed:

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


And what happened to the rest of the world? See below:


2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel

Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."

So if they are blinded, how can they believe? Apparently, only God has the power to open your eyes and help you believe. And apparently, he didn't extend the courtesy to all (based on verses above these). and this one: 2Co 4:6 For God...made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge


One could say:
God sees ahead of time who was "worthy" or whatever one needs to be and that's why he chose them to be saved. In other words, they did what they needed to do in order to be saved, based on God's rules, so they won the game. So it's not like he chose them even though they didn't play the game right, it's more like it's because "they ran the race and they won" and they were chosen (as the winners of the race) to enter heaven.

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Many do not know what they are doing and where they are spiritually:
Joh 12:35 The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
1Jn 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
Mat 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
1Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Rev 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.


Ok. But then why did some believe and later fell away? (if God knows ahead of time who to make believe, why did he allow some "unworthy" ones to believe?) I guess because God wanted to show a few examples of how people could see the truth and still not be able to "win the race" and therefore be found worthy of heaven?

But this one is still the most tricky one: It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. And I guess I would have to really stretch here and say that it doesn't depend on whether you want to go to heaven (because all would want to), it more depends on whether you have the "stuff" to make it there, whether you are heaven material according to how God foreknew you.

Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. ... "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Rom 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined...And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you

[LoveWisdom]

But then one could say: but Paul said that Abraham was saved by his faith, not by works. (Romans 4:3)

Well, "works" would mean that you were "heaven material and had what it takes to make it". The only way I could see this (as one possible explanation) is that in this sense, faith was necessary to get entrance to heaven because people couldn't make it totally based on whether they were "heaven material". Even if they were at their best, they would still fall short of perfection. So they still couldn't make it on their own. So it's like they almost made it, but just fell short (the bridge is not taking them all the way). So that's why the righteousness of Jesus comes along. It creates a bridge (or rather extends it all the way).

Well, this is the only way I can explain salvation by works vs by faith vs God choosing you to be saved and predestining you ahead of time, and yet you are still involved in you "getting there". It's not just plain believing that gets you there.

So it sounds like (based on the Bible verses), you can't just go to heaven if you want to. You can only get there if you have what it takes to get there. And that's why Christians say: if you just believe, but don't show fruit Gal 5:22 (if you're not acting Christlike or going that direction), then your faith is dead, you are not really saved. You have wishful thinking. You have a desire to go to heaven, but you don't have what it takes. Your "faith"is not alive. In other words, your connection to God is non existent.

Jas 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. Jas 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
Mat 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
Mat 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit,
Luk 13:9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'"
Joh 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit
Joh 15:8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Php 1:11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ

Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,


And on top of this, even if you are "heaven material", you still need help to get there.

2Co 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
2Co 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Joh 15:4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Php 1:11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

[mordant]

Eh, that's just the old Calvinism vs Arminianism debate, which arises because the Bible can be quotemined for either. If the question were so important to god you'd think he'd have taken pains to not say two different things about it in his book. This is just one of the reasons I've just ditched the whole sorry mess -- I wanted to remove the oodles of cognitive dissonance that it produced for me.

[NoCapo]

Yeah, one attempt to synthesize the two views is Molinism, which William Lane Craig espouses. The idea is that we have both free will and are absolutely predestined, because God knew before the foundation of the world what we would choose if we had free choice in all possible situations, so then he created the world in such a way as to get the exact results he wants with us making free choices. So the idea is that our choices are free, but the results of those choices are predetermined...

It is a bit hard to wrap ones head around.

-NoCapo

[nateswift]

One way to sort of slide around the question is to say that "predestined" is not intended to apply individually, but more like "planned for as a class of reaction to the message," but that is not really tenable. This is one for all those who say therre is no conflict in the Bible. It seems clear to me that some of the writers thought (like Calvin) that God's sovereignty necessarily entailed micromanagement without following the thought to its inevitable conclusion that God is a puppetmaster and that makes Him a monster who chooses who to "save" and who to damn, so that humans have no choice and therefore no responsibility.
That the view can not be reconciled with the God of love posited by Jesus should be manifest, and therefore that the Bible can't be plenary inspired and inerrant, obvious.

[domenic]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

I started off with one purpose in mind, but finished else where. I ended up writing from the Christian perspective this time. I am an interesting combination. I used to know Christianity by heart (and deeply). And now I know the outside perspective as well. And I enjoyed both perspectives (each in their own time).

Many Christians believe that they have free will whether to reject God or to choose him. But these verses seem to imply that God is the one who chooses.

Mat 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Rom 9:11-18 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." ...For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
...Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Here it says that only those who were "to be saved" believed:

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


And what happened to the rest of the world? See below:


2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel

Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."

So if they are blinded, how can they believe? Apparently, only God has the power to open your eyes and help you believe. And apparently, he didn't extend the courtesy to all (based on verses above these). and this one: 2Co 4:6 For God...made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge


One could say:
God sees ahead of time who was "worthy" or whatever one needs to be and that's why he chose them to be saved. In other words, they did what they needed to do in order to be saved, based on God's rules, so they won the game. So it's not like he chose them even though they didn't play the game right, it's more like it's because "they ran the race and they won" and they were chosen (as the winners of the race) to enter heaven.

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Many do not know what they are doing and where they are spiritually:
Joh 12:35 The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
1Jn 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
Mat 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
1Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Rev 3:17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.


Ok. But then why did some believe and later fell away? (if God knows ahead of time who to make believe, why did he allow some "unworthy" ones to believe?) I guess because God wanted to show a few examples of how people could see the truth and still not be able to "win the race" and therefore be found worthy of heaven?

But this one is still the most tricky one: It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. And I guess I would have to really stretch here and say that it doesn't depend on whether you want to go to heaven (because all would want to), it more depends on whether you have the "stuff" to make it there, whether you are heaven material according to how God foreknew you.

Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. ... "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Rom 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined...And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you

Well Lovewisdom,
You have it all correct, except...we are not going to heaven.
John 6:44..we do not chose God, he is the one who chooses who he wants. How does he do that? He looks into the future. If we will live by his laws we will have live, if he sees we won't, we will not be there. You should ask yourself this question: Why would I serve God? Would I do it for the reward of live, or because my heart will let me do no other...in other words, would you still serve God if he told you would not be given life? Things God does is right. If he said, "You won't have live," It would be the right thing. Jesus told us, those in his time, and those in our time..."How to have life." It's not a complex process...it's very simple. People on this forum speak of science as the last word...so I will explain the process using science;
When we are in the womb, one piece of flesh splits into two pieces. These two pieces are always connected. One piece becomes the heart, the other the brain. What the brain thinks, goes into the heart. You may have heard this said, "When a man is angry, his heart is hot." We have the ability to build a good, or bad heart by what we allow ourselves to think about. We can build a good heart, or a bad one. If we build a good heart condition, we will have life...if we don't we will not. We can control what we want to be. Sometimes it is hard, but if we keep asking God to help us build a good heart, he will.
As to going to Heaven, man was not designed to go to heaven. Man was designed to live on earth, and care for it. God never changes his plans...that is why we can always trust what he says...he keeps to his word. Religions do not teach the truth...they lie, and tell people things that are not true...like going to Heaven. If I may suggest, make a list of false major doctrines, and start looking for a religion that does not have one. If you find a religion that has none, join it...I am sure you will not find one that is not false...this means you will stand before God alone. It will seem like you are alone, but in truth you are not...you will have God, his son Jesus, and all the other creatures in heaven with you...To win the race does not mean you head the pack, it means you have given it your best, even if you are the last one to cross the finish line.



,

[Cephas40]

Being Baptist I see it as Spurgeon did. I've tried over the years to write this in my own words but either fail miserably or find myself close to plagiarism. Here's what he wrote, and no, it is not copyrighted;

The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.”

[domenic]

Originally Posted by Pastor Al

Being Baptist I see it as Spurgeon did. I've tried over the years to write this in my own words but either fail miserably or find myself close to plagiarism. Here's what he wrote, and no, it is not copyrighted;

Pasto Al,
Thank you for this post. It is not often a man will express the deep things he has developed over a lifetime. Believing in God, and wondering why most of it does not seem to add up. We humans must have answers. If we can't find them, we make one up...theory.

I see myself as two men. The man God created perfect like Adam...who I am not, but should be, and the man I am, who is not perfect, and can't be.

I know the perfect man would understand God, and agree with him as to why he created us, and how we should feel. I know to well our condition today, and fight not knowing how a perfect man feels the joy of serving God. Satan has had since the Garden, the rebuilding of man. Conditioned to die for freedom.
Examine the word freedom. To do what you want, when, where, and how. To be what you want. To be free of ruler ship. God created the perfect man to serve him, and be happy serving him. To do what God wants, when, where, and how...freedom would be rebellion. Satan started the rebellion. He now has the human family in rebellion...freedom is rebellion from God. Do I feel good knowing I will give up freedom to serve my God? Yes. Can I feel the joy I will have once I am perfect? No I can't...but I know it will be there.
I guess the feeling is like telling a person who is on drugs, or alcohol, you will feel great once you kick the habit. I know why we are not perfect. I know what has made us as we are...it is the key to why things are as they are.

[Cephas40]

Originally Posted by domenic

Pasto Al,
Thank you for this post. It is not often a man will express the deep things he has developed over a lifetime. Believing in God, and wondering why most of it does not seem to add up. We humans must have answers. If we can't find them, we make one up...theory.

I see myself as two men. The man God created perfect like Adam...who I am not, but should be, and the man I am, who is not perfect, and can't be.

I know the perfect man would understand God, and agree with him as to why he created us, and how we should feel. I know to well our condition today, and fight not knowing how a perfect man feels the joy of serving God. Satan has had since the Garden, the rebuilding of man. Conditioned to die for freedom.
Examine the word freedom. To do what you want, when, where, and how. To be what you want. To be free of ruler ship. God created the perfect man to serve him, and be happy serving him. To do what God wants, when, where, and how...freedom would be rebellion. Satan started the rebellion. He now has the human family in rebellion...freedom is rebellion from God. Do I feel good knowing I will give up freedom to serve my God? Yes. Can I feel the joy I will have once I am perfect? No I can't...but I know it will be there.
I guess the feeling is like telling a person who is on drugs, or alcohol, you will feel great once you kick the habit. I know why we are not perfect. I know what has made us as we are...it is the key to why things are as they are.

You sound like a person for which God has great plans.

[domenic]

Originally Posted by Pastor Al

Being Baptist I see it as Spurgeon did. I've tried over the years to write this in my own words but either fail miserably or find myself close to plagiarism. Here's what he wrote, and no, it is not copyrighted;

Pastor Al,
I want to send you a PM, but you don't have it open.