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I find this such a strange ruling myself. Although the Hobby Lobby situation is rather specific (post conception contraceptive coverage), it opens up a lot of potentially ambiguous situations where the corporate world could request exemption from federal labor and trade laws based on "religious beliefs."
I just do not see how a law mandating specific minimum coverages in health care from a large corporation is an infringement on the religious freedoms of the owner of said corporation. The owners are still free to practice and worship their faith as they see fit, free from government intervention or restriction on that worship.
All this decision has done is allowed a corporation to impose it's faith on other Americans, by giving them the right to deny coverage which has been mandated by law, and is provided to workers of other corporations.
In a way, it also creates an unfair corporate business environment by giving Hobby Lobby a financial competitive adantage as they are now no longer required to purchase insurance plans that cover as much as the rest of the corporate world is required to purchase. It makes the playing field unlevel.
It looks to me like the decision was more about using the issue as a political football to attack the ACA than it was about Constitutional rights and freedoms.
This is just yet another case of religious whackos who think that their freedom to practice their religion is infinite - that they can impose their own personal, individual beliefs onto everyone within their sphere of influence. In this case, the employers are holding their employees' livelihoods hostage. "Either you obey my religion or else you can just find somewhere else to work."
So what does that mean? That a Muslim business owner can now require all women who work in his company to wear burqas? Hey! That's freedom of religion, is it not? Hell, religious business owners can even start discriminating against anyone they think aren't living the kind of life they "ought" to be living according to the employer's religion.
Essentially, this decision has weakened all past and future cases that stand against religion trying to creep into the business world - which is just as bad as religion creeping into government.
Religious freedom is a major cornerstone of our country. What does it mean? It means the government can't force a business owner to do something against their morals. But you twist it completely around and say it is about giving the business owners freedom to force employees to follow their religious practices.
How is not paying for an abortion pill forcing someone to follow Christian practices? If the business owner told the employee that if you take this drug even if you pay for it yourself, you will be fired then you have something resembling your Muslim comparison. Hobby Lobby is not doing that at all.
Bottom line, you don't like Hobby Lobby's values, don't work there!
I will be happy to give my Yes or No answers if anyone is interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
These are interesting questions, and I for one would like to hear your answers.
Sure. My answers are Yes, Yes, No, No.
In other words, aborting a healthy 8-month old fetus is murder, but aborting a 3-month old fetus or killing a fertilized egg is OK.
However, some very reasonable people would answer Yes to all four questions. They sincerely believe any kind of an abortion, even killing a fertilized egg, is murder, and that is probably why they are opposed to a contraceptive that kills a fertilized egg.
Forcing these people to offer those types of contraceptives to their employees seems wrong to me, and that is why I agree with the Supreme Court decision.
How is any of this relevant to a court ruling that implies that corporations have religious beliefs, and that having those beliefs allows those corporations to ignore the law?
In other words, aborting a healthy 8-month old fetus is murder, but aborting a 3-month old fetus or killing a fertilized egg is OK.
However, some very reasonable people would answer Yes to all four questions. They sincerely believe any kind of an abortion, even killing a fertilized egg, is murder, and that is probably why they are opposed to a contraceptive that kills a fertilized egg.
Forcing these people to offer those types of contraceptives to their employees seems wrong to me, and that is why I agree with the Supreme Court decision.
However, some very reasonable people would answer Yes to all four questions. They sincerely believe any kind of an abortion, even killing a fertilized egg, is murder, and that is probably why they are opposed to a contraceptive that kills a fertilized egg.
Forcing these people to offer those types of contraceptives to their employees seems wrong to me, and that is why I agree with the Supreme Court decision.
Hello hiker45.
First, we are not talking about people providing contraception, we are talking about the health care plans purchased by companies for their employees providing contraception. The rights of people and companies are (or historically have been) different.
Second, do you then agree that I should not have paid my federal taxes from 2003 to 2011? What if I consider an unjust war to be murder?
First, we are not talking about people providing contraception, we are talking about the health care plans purchased by companies for their employees providing contraception. The rights of people and companies are (or historically have been) different.
Second, do you then agree that I should not have paid my federal taxes from 2003 to 2011? What if I consider an unjust war to be murder?
Thanks.
And against your Christian conscience as well!!!
Too soon to rep, etc. etc.
But I suspect you will hear in so many words that a corporation is allowed a Christian monetary conscience, and you as an individual are not.
In other words, aborting a healthy 8-month old fetus is murder, but aborting a 3-month old fetus or killing a fertilized egg is OK.
However, some very reasonable people would answer Yes to all four questions. They sincerely believe any kind of an abortion, even killing a fertilized egg, is murder, and that is probably why they are opposed to a contraceptive that kills a fertilized egg.
Forcing these people to offer those types of contraceptives to their employees seems wrong to me, and that is why I agree with the Supreme Court decision.
Interesting perspective. Thanks Hiker.
I came across this article which describes in more depth the objections raised:
As I said in the OP, it does seem odd to me that an employer should be responsible for providing healthcare coverage for employees contraception, regardless of your view on what constitutes conception.
But then again, I find it odd that an employer should be providing coverage for any kind of healthcare.
I'm in favour of Obamacare only because I think it is better than what we had before ie many people with no healthcare. But I'd always favour a single payer system over this one.
I wouldn't be surprised if this opens the floodgates to other objections. Obamacare is always going to be a bit of a mish-mash to me. I guess they will get these issues straightened out in time.
To me the Government should be providing this form of healthcare directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyker
Hello all.
From 2003 to 2011, my tax dollars payed for a war that I did not believe should be fought. Was I then permitted to stop paying my taxes because the money was being used in a manner that violated my conscience? Unfortunately, the answer is "no." Compromise is part of living in a civilized society.
I join you in paying for wars that I don't like...you join me in paying for contraception that you don't like...
Thanks.
I also agree with what Hyker said here. Sometimes we are forced to do things that are at odds with our personal moral code.
I guess I'm still undecided.
Last edited by Cruithne; 07-01-2014 at 10:25 AM..
Reason: typo
All of this nonsense based around a religious belief that isn't even written anywhere. Prohibiting contraception, or even abortion, is not in the Bible. And while I can understand equating abortion to murder (though I don't agree with it during the first trimester), the contraception issue is merely smoke and fluff - a political decision by the Catholic Church to ensure that Catholics have massive, bloated families to keep the pews filled (as well as the church coffers).
Allowing adherence to religious dogma to become corporate policy sets a bad precedent. These kinds of Christians will not stop at just one victory - as the gay rights issue has proven beyond doubt. Winning here means, sooner or later, they will reach for another victory and another after that until they are stopped by the courts.
All of this nonsense based around a religious belief that isn't even written anywhere. Prohibiting contraception, or even abortion, is not in the Bible. And while I can understand equating abortion to murder (though I don't agree with it during the first trimester), the contraception issue is merely smoke and fluff - a political decision by the Catholic Church to ensure that Catholics have massive, bloated families to keep the pews filled (as well as the church coffers).
Allowing adherence to religious dogma to become corporate policy sets a bad precedent. These kinds of Christians will not stop at just one victory - as the gay rights issue has proven beyond doubt. Winning here means, sooner or later, they will reach for another victory and another after that until they are stopped by the courts.
As is their right to do.
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