Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (hell, Israel, quote)
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Do you believe that morality is subjective or objective?
I believe it is subjective.
Now go ahead and answer the question.
Any system created by a human being is subjective. So...I guess on that we agree.
Now...if morality is subjective, please explain to me how that subjective morality is capable of judging anyone else. At best, it's merely your opinion and the most you can say about something is that you just don't like it..lest someone else with a subjective morality disagrees with you and says they do like it.
Look, 'morality' is an ambiguous term and has different meanings. I use it in a very broad sense to mean principles of conduct (those permitted and those not permitted) that are held by individuals or groups of individuals. See the definition of morality by the Stanford Encyclopedia under the descriptive definition.
As such it is wholly subjective - period. Morality has do with human action and how people categorize those actions as either permissible or not and labeled as right or wrong. Persons are the ones who hold these ideas in their mind, ideas that they developed or borrowed from others. There is no 'morality' out-there somewhere to be grasped or revealed by some supernatural being (Platonic or otherwise). Nature, experience, science, biology, logic may inform our concepts but they are still subject to our processing them through our subjective selves and thus - Subjective.
To the degree to which our concepts tract reality is the degree to which they may or may not be objectively held. What I do not mean by that term is that objectivity is outside of the human sphere all together pointing to some realm out there somewhere but outside of the conscious mind. Objectivity is in this case known by methods other than biased rational thinking - logical principles (axioms), science, biological necessities, etc, that diminish and render subjectivity and bias to a minimum allowing us to see why such actions should be permitted or not. If there is no way to bridge that gap between our minds and the external reality and the space between individual minds interacting with each other then there is no objectivity to morality period. Theists usually use objectivity in the former way. As such the burden is on them and anyone else to demonstrate that morality is objective in that sense - Platonic or otherwise.
In other words it is possible that some opinions (ones that have been vetted through proper methodologies and not just feelings) can tract or correspond to or express reality and as such be objective or true. If you want to quibble over whether that is a true opinion fine but this is just semantics. We can use other terms to make the point - like moral propositions about what is right or wrong. The point is that all that we hold in our minds whether it corresponds to reality or not, whether it is based upon research or just mere feelings is subjective. That is how the term is being used - it is not jut mere opinion or feeling - it is that all of our conscious propositions can not but be subjective in that we alone hold them in one singular mind - our own.
This is some form of moral realism. It might just be possible to have our subjective ideas about morality correspond to reality and that we may know this with confidence and evidence. If so then it is possible for a subjective creature/s to realize an objectivity regarding moral values that are held by subjective creatures. If not then we are stuck with subjectivity - the default position. But we all start out with our own moral propositions being subjective. Whether or not they turn out to be objectively true is what the game is all about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Why should we accept your idea of morality? What makes you right?
The same thing that makes you THINK YOU are right, Vizio! There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and Shiloh's . . . NONE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
The same moral system that I and many others have repeated a few dozen times on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
And why is it right?
For the same reasons you THINK YOU are right, Vizio. There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and fishbrain's . . . NONE!
The same thing that makes you THINK YOU are right, Vizio! There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and Shiloh's . . . NONE!
For the same reasons you THINK YOU are right, Vizio. There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and fishbrain's . . . NONE!
You do recognize that I'm not the one arguing for a subjective morality based on the whim of man, right? Or did that just go completely over your head?
The same thing that makes you THINK YOU are right, Vizio! There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and Shiloh's . . . NONE!
For the same reasons you THINK YOU are right, Vizio. There is absolutely no difference between your reasons and fishbrain's . . . NONE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
You do recognize that I'm not the one arguing for a subjective morality based on the whim of man, right? Or did that just go completely over your head?
What I recognize (and most everyone else here as well) is that you THINK you are NOT arguing for a subjective morality based on whim. But you ARE. You are just basing it on the whim of your ancient Israelite War God as described by our ignorant primitive ancestors.
What I recognize (and most everyone else here as well) is that you THINK you are NOT arguing for a subjective morality based on whim. But you ARE. You are just basing it on the whim of your ancient Israelite War God as described by our ignorant primitive ancestors.
How about not telling me what I think and instead go by what I say? What is this subjective morality that I supposedly think I'm arguing for? Do you suggest I want everyone to live the law of Moses?
What I recognize (and most everyone else here as well) is that you THINK you are NOT arguing for a subjective morality based on whim. But you ARE. You are just basing it on the whim of your ancient Israelite War God as described by our ignorant primitive ancestors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
How about not telling me what I think and instead go by what I say? What is this subjective morality that I supposedly think I'm arguing for? Do you suggest I want everyone to live the law of Moses?
That is easy. IF your God says something is moral . . . it is moral. If your God does something . . . it is moral. If your God commands something . . . it is moral. There are no standards . . . just your God's whim. There are no absolutes . . . just your God's whim. Isn't that about it, Vizio???
09-23-2014, 01:52 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Why should we accept your idea of morality? What makes you right?
You don't have to!
I gave you reasons already - go back and re-read my posts.
Last edited by 2K5Gx2km; 09-23-2014 at 02:13 PM..
09-23-2014, 01:58 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Any system created by a human being is subjective. So...I guess on that we agree.
That means your ideas about morality as well whether or not they are original with you or the Israelites. Otherwise, demonstrate that your God created a system of morality - better yet first demonstrate that he even exists - I'll be waiting.
Quote:
Now...if morality is subjective, please explain to me how that subjective morality is capable of judging anyone else. At best, it's merely your opinion and the most you can say about something is that you just don't like it..lest someone else with a subjective morality disagrees with you and says they do like it.
If so then your God morality is under the same burden.
I have already explained how we judge others to you - go re-read my posts.
Why don't you now answer my question? Again you just ignore and then repeat.
Here is the question again: Do you believe that morality is subjective or objective?
Last edited by 2K5Gx2km; 09-23-2014 at 02:10 PM..
09-23-2014, 02:08 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
What is this subjective morality that I supposedly think I'm arguing for?
Whatever you are arguing for is your subjective view. Hello! So if you argue for objective moral values that are grounded in YHWH then that is YOUR SUBJECTIVE view on morality. And until you demonstrate that this YHWH exist and that he has these morals then you have nothing but your subjective view that there is objective morality grounded in YHWH.
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And until you demonstrate that this YHWH exist and that he has these morals then you have nothing but your subjective view that there is objective morality grounded in YHWH. 
