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More children are “growing up godless” than at any other time in our nation's history. They are the offspring of an expanding secular population that includes a relatively new and burgeoning category of Americans called the “Nones,” so nicknamed because they identified themselves as believing in “nothing in particular” in a 2012 study by the Pew Research Center.
The number of American children raised without religion has grown significantly since the 1950s, when fewer than 4% of Americans reported growing up in a nonreligious household, according to several recent national studies. That figure entered the double digits when a 2012 study showed that 11% of people born after 1970 said they had been raised in secular homes. This may help explain why 23% of adults in the U.S. claim to have no religion, and more than 30% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 say the same.
Gee another study desperately trying to put a negative spin on people of faith. (and considering the source, I'm not surprised.) How does one really gauge that an atheist family is more "moral" than a faith based one, anyways? There are so many variables involved that it is simply bad science and reasoning to draw the conclusion that religion is bad.
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Originally Posted by Old Town FFX
Another meaningful related fact: Democratic countries with the lowest levels of religious faith and participation today — such as Sweden, Denmark, Japan, Belgium and New Zealand — have among the lowest violent crime rates in the world and enjoy remarkably high levels of societal well-being. If secular people couldn't raise well-functioning, moral children, then a preponderance of them in a given society would spell societal disaster. Yet quite the opposite is the case.
And many of those countries have the highest suicidal rates in the world. Not surprising since being godless means you have no hope if life suddenly deals you a bad hand.
And many of those countries have the highest suicidal rates in the world. Not surprising since being godless means you have no hope if life suddenly deals you a bad hand.
I see Japan in the top 10, other than that, your comment seems to be more of an opinion than fact.
Being godless means, when life throws a curve ball, you suck it up and do what you have to do. You have hope, hope in yourself. Hope to perceiver, live and learn.
This is why there are some Christians who admit they would murder their own children if they thought God ordered them to do so. Even though they know, on some level, that killing their own children is morally reprehensible, their compulsion to blindly obey overcomes any need to question the command.
I would hope that most people who say this are simply trying to avoid what they regard as a rhetorical trap and what we regard as a logical inconsistency -- and when pressed, would do the Right Thing and (rightly) doubt that god would command them to do something that is clearly wrong enough to disturb most anyone's moral compass. But on the other hand, it's not hard to come by stories of Christians who, for instance, allow their children to die of preventable illnesses because they felt god was commanding them to do so or that he was calling them to go "all the way" in their faith or some such. So it's true that blind obedience can result in all sorts of mayhem and tragedy.
Lately some Christians here (Eusebius comes to mind) are admitting that god is not omnibenevolent or at least not bound by all the things mere humans are forbidden -- that he can engage in "the end justifies the means" even if we can't. This is scary because it adds another layer of rationalization for unstable people to do hideous things that they think god is telling them to do. It doesn't even provide the "braking mechanism" of "god would never command me to do something like that", if god is capable of committing or allowing evil.
Gee another study desperately trying to put a negative spin on people of faith. (and considering the source, I'm not surprised.) How does one really gauge that an atheist family is more "moral" than a faith based one, anyways? There are so many variables involved that it is simply bad science and reasoning to draw the conclusion that religion is bad.
I don't think the takeaway here is that religion is bad. The point is that a-religious families don't seem to be producing the evil, amoral monsters that many religious predicted. Turns out godless families produce children that are more or less as empathetic, kind, law abiding, etc... as religious families.
The point isn't to put a negative spin on people of faith, it is to point out that the negative spin on those who lack faith is misplaced.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And many of those countries have the highest suicidal rates in the world. Not surprising since being godless means you have no hope if life suddenly deals you a bad hand.
It appears to me that as a general rule, being really far north and being poor without a major civil conflict (no common enemy to demonize) seem to be much better indicators of suicide rates than religiosity...
I see Japan in the top 10, other than that, your comment seems to be more of an opinion than fact.
Being godless means, when life throws a curve ball, you suck it up and do what you have to do. You have hope, hope in yourself. Hope to perceiver, live and learn.
Out of 110 countries on that list, Belgium, Finland and Japan are in the top 25.
Suck it up? Tell that to someone who struggles with chronic pain every day and see if they return a smile. When your only hope is science and medicine, that's pretty depressing.
When your only hope is science and medicine, that's pretty depressing.
Less depressing than prayer, which is totally ineffectual and leads to agonizing about why god isn't answering it or how you might be unworthy of his kind regard. Or than waiting for a god who is perfectly capable of healing you instantly without breaking a sweat, but doesn't, to let you die naturally so he can THEN give you a pleasant existence after you're dead.
Suck it up? Tell that to someone who struggles with chronic pain every day and see if they return a smile. When your only hope is science and medicine, that's pretty depressing.
Preaching to the choir. That said, I prefer to put my faith in science and medicine. Lots of people have prayed for me, it hasn't seemed to have helped.
And many of those countries have the highest suicidal rates in the world. Not surprising since being godless means you have no hope if life suddenly deals you a bad hand.
I trust you have actual statistics and citations to back up this claim. Or at least I would if you had not failed to offer them the last times you made this claim and were asked to substantiate them.
Similarly false is your painting of the atheist world as being without hope. Just more of your agenda spin really. Not deriving hope from your fantasy is not the same as having no hope. But do not let facts get in the way of you railing on atheism with falsehoods as per usual.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
When your only hope is science and medicine, that's pretty depressing.
Quite a good place to place your hope actually, and far from depressing at all. Why only this week I read stories about one woman in Ireland receiving a bionic spine, and another man who received a new generation of artificial leg which actually gives him a natural and normal gait.
But I suppose these people could sit around mumbling prayers into the ether and watch their hardships continue unabated and uncured. Yeah thats not depressing at all.
And I am sure the numerous children who had parents who forwent medical intervention in favor of prayer only to have their parents watch them die slowly, painfully and of easily treated ailments.... were not depressed _at all_. Nor are the parents who were then subsequently (and very rightly) prosecuted and even jailed for criminal neglect leading to the death of a minor. I am sure they are all full of cheer and joy... those of them that are still alive that is (the parents who killed their children in the name of their unsubstantiated god nonsense but themselves still have the privilege of life... life they denied their own child by their religious nonsense.)
Yes all not depressing at all in the face of science and medicine that actually do cure people, actually do return children to their parents healthy, actually do give hope of cures and alleviation of pain, and actually do WORK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Out of 110 countries on that list, Belgium, Finland and Japan are in the top 25.
Wow 3. And not in the top 5, or top 10, but the top 25. Yeah that _really_ supports your "many" comment in your first post doesnt it. Oh wait, no it does not. At all. Hyperbole fail again.
I trust you have actual statistics and citations to back up this claim. Or at least I would if you had not failed to offer them the last times you made this claim and were asked to substantiate them.
Similarly false is your painting of the atheist world as being without hope. Just more of your agenda spin really. Not deriving hope from your fantasy is not the same as having no hope. But do not let facts get in the way of you railing on atheism with falsehoods as per usual.
Unfortunately for you, facts are on my side:
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Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide.
Quite a good place to place your hope actually, and far from depressing at all. Why only this week I read stories about one woman in Ireland receiving a bionic spine, and another man who received a new generation of artificial leg which actually gives him a natural and normal gait.
Like I said, go tell that to someone suffering from chronic pain. The marvels of science can't even explain what causes my tinnitus which can be maddening enough to drive people to suicide. Or the thousands who have died from cancer because the best that we can come up with is to inject toxic chemo into the body to fight it. Even more scary are recent examples like the Ebola outbreak which shows just how medical science is powerless especially with the rise of antibiotic resistant new strains.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
And I am sure the numerous children who had parents who forwent medical intervention in favor of prayer only to have their parents watch them die slowly, painfully and of easily treated ailments.... were not depressed _at all_. Nor are the parents who were then subsequently (and very rightly) prosecuted and even jailed for criminal neglect leading to the death of a minor. I am sure they are all full of cheer and joy... those of them that are still alive that is (the parents who killed their children in the name of their unsubstantiated god nonsense but themselves still have the privilege of life... life they denied their own child by their religious nonsense.)
Yes all not depressing at all in the face of science and medicine that actually do cure people, actually do return children to their parents healthy, actually do give hope of cures and alleviation of pain, and actually do WORK.
Most bible believing Christians do not reject medical treatment. We believe medicine in conjunction with prayer offers the best outcome, and studies actually support this truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Wow 3. And not in the top 5, or top 10, but the top 25. Yeah that _really_ supports your "many" comment in your first post doesnt it. Oh wait, no it does not. At all. Hyperbole fail again.
Yea wow. If I am to believe that a secular society is one that produces happiness and higher standard of living and morality, they shouldn't be on the list at all.
Less depressing than prayer, which is totally ineffectual and leads to agonizing about why god isn't answering it or how you might be unworthy of his kind regard. Or than waiting for a god who is perfectly capable of healing you instantly without breaking a sweat, but doesn't, to let you die naturally so he can THEN give you a pleasant existence after you're dead.
Or discovering that God allowed you to go through a difficult experience because it brought you closer to Him or had a significant spiritual impact which is certainly more important than our brief time on this planet with physical struggles.
Even with that, your comment of "totally ineffectual" only holds true if God has never healed a single person. I know for a fact that is wrong because I witness a friend go from stage 4 thyroid cancer to being completely clear with no treatment at all. That was during a period of great spiritual movement and awakening in my church to the point where the church remained opened 24/7 and people came and prayed for him in all hours throughout the night. He was completely healed almost immediately. That was over 10 years ago, and it's still gone.
In your hopeless world, he would have had to endure months of different treatments.
You think a perfect God should just heal everyone right? Oh wait, that would include ppl like the scum of ISIS. Ok God, just heal everyone except the evil people. So where do you draw the line? Would that include drunk drivers? We are all sinner and have all done evil things in the sight of a holy righteous God.
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