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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Who Brought the Capernaum Centurion’s Request to Jesus?
It’s the centurion himself who comes.
Matthew 8:5: And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him.
The centurion sends some elders.
Luke 7:3: And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
The centurion sends friends. Same book, same chapter as "elders."
Luke 7:6: Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof.
Out of context? Transcriptual errors?
Or just another case of a biblical's right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing?
Who Brought the Capernaum Centurion’s Request to Jesus?
It’s the centurion himself who comes.
Matthew 8:5: And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him.
The centurion sends some elders.
Luke 7:3: And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
The centurion sends friends. Same book, same chapter as "elders."
Luke 7:6: Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof.
Out of context? Transcriptual errors?
Or just another case of a biblical's right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing?
How about simple lack of knowledge or consideration regarding the culture of the time? In this case, it was common for a centurion to send out a representative to speak for them. The elders are simply the mouthpiece of the centurion so their words are his words. In that sense, the centurion did come unto Jesus.
You are missing the point. Matthew says quite clearly that the centurion himself accosted Jesus as soon as he came in from the sermon on the mount. Jesus was inclined to go with him but the centurion says 'I'm not worthy' and allows Jesus to do a 'Healing at a distance'. There is no possible room to postulate the centurion sending representatives.
So there is a contradiction between Matthew's account and Luke's where Luke, seeing the story, saw some problems in a centurion approaching Jesus (nothing that actually couldn't be got over with some apologetic ingenuity) and has him send along some elders, who are grateful to him for building their Synagogue (1) and as usual, since he never saw Matthew, he didn't realize that he was contradicting him. And neither of them realized that the John's Gospel story of a 'healing at a distance' is so totally different from either of them that, unless one buys the Eusebian (ours, not Constantine's) explanation that they are two different (though similar) events (2) not to mention Mark not having the story at all, one is forced to the conclusion that a 'healing at a distance' is the only common factor, and thus John and Matthew and Luke (but not Mark since the story was not doing the rounds in his day) all elaborated on the basic common story, resulting in the contradictions. As is pretty much par for the Gospel course, from nativity to resurrection.
Thus the point about sending elders of representatives is irrelevant. You remind me so much of my old work -pal who would do the same thing. When I raised problems of this kind, he would sorta sidestep the entire issue and try to fiddle some irrelevant detail of the story to sound plausible, and also with the element of either not knowing that the Centurion in Matthew can't be passed off as 'going himself' by sending a representative, or hoping that we won't bother to look.
(1) the stunning proof of Gospel truth is the existence of an actual Synagogue in Capernaum! It isn't actually of the 1st century, but the one the centurion built is probably underneath it...
(2) I don't think even Eusebius would try to get away with the two centurion -healings in Matthew and Luke as being different events.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-18-2015 at 11:01 AM..
Isaiah 46:9-10 - “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” God is Omniscient
I'm thinking there are two possibilities if the Bible is to be taken literally.
Possibility #1: The Lord is not completely all-knowing. Maybe he understands some fated major events and minor events but not everything.
Possibility #2: The Lord not only planned to eventually destroy all life on Earth and start over, but planned to eventually regret creating humanity.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,930,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
How about simple lack of knowledge or consideration regarding the culture of the time? In this case, it was common for a centurion to send out a representative to speak for them. The elders are simply the mouthpiece of the centurion so their words are his words. In that sense, the centurion did come unto Jesus.
Jeff, that is one of your worst twists and turns and ducking for a non-answer yet.
You are missing the point. Matthew says quite clearly that the centurion himself accosted Jesus as soon as he came in from the sermon on the mount. Jesus was inclined to go with him but the centurion says 'I'm not worthy' and allows Jesus to do a 'Healing at a distance'. There is no possible room to postulate the centurion sending representatives.
So there is a contradiction between Matthew's account and Luke's where Luke, seeing the story, saw some problems in a centurion approaching Jesus (nothing that actually couldn't be got over with some apologetic ingenuity) has him send along some elders, who are grateful to him for building their Synagogue (1) and as usual, since he never saw Matthew, he didn't realize that he was contradicting him. And neither of them realized that the John's Gospel story of a 'healing at a distance' is so totally different from either of them that, unless one buys the Eusebian (ours, not Constantine's) explanation that they are two different (though similar) events (2) not to mention Mark not having the story at all, one is force to the conclusion that a 'healing at a distance' is the only common factor, and thus John and Matthew and Luke (but not Mark since the story was not doing the rounds in his day) all elaborated on the basic common story, resulting in the contradictions. As is pretty much par for the Gospel course, from nativity to resurrection.
Thus the point about sending elders of representatives is irrelevant. You remind me so much of my old work -pal who would do the same thing. When I raised problems of this kind, he would sorta sidestep the entire issue and try to fiddle the story to sound plausible and also with the element of either not knowing that the Centurion in Matthew can't be passed off as 'going himself' by sending a representative, or hoping that we won't bother to look.
(1) the stunning proof of Gospel truth is the existence of an actual Synagogue in Capernaum! It isn't actually of the 1st century, but the one the centurion built is probably underneath it...
(2) I don't think even Eusebius would try to get away with the two centurion -healings in Matthew and Luke as being different events.
Sorry, but for all your rhetoric, I don't see any contradiction. There is nothing in the whole passage from Matthew that specific states that the centurion had a face to face encounter with Jesus. Matthew just didn't see the need to include every particular detail.
Matthew 8. 5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.(KJV)
How can you possibly say: " There is nothing in the whole passage from Matthew that specific states that the centurion had a face to face encounter with Jesus." Don't you know what's in your own Bible? If you were thinking to argue that this represents a messenger running back and forth, I can only say that you deserve the Biblical apologetics medal.
Who Brought the Capernaum Centurion’s Request to Jesus?
It’s the centurion himself who comes.
Matthew 8:5: And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him.
The centurion sends some elders.
Luke 7:3: And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
The centurion sends friends. Same book, same chapter as "elders."
Luke 7:6: Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof.
Out of context? Transcriptual errors?
Or just another case of a biblical's right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing?
I fail to see the issue. Sending "friends", or "a representative" was the same thing as a personal visit, in that time, in this genre of literature. You can choose to use this as a smokescreen for not believing, that's fine. Something tells me that even if Jesus himself appeared to you and told you this was 3 different occasions of a Centurion you'd still disbelieve.
Why? Why would you hold a 1st Century writer to your standards?
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You remind me so much of my old work -pal who would do the same thing. When I raised problems of this kind, he would sorta sidestep the entire issue and try to fiddle some irrelevant detail of the story to sound plausible, and also with the element of either not knowing that the Centurion in Matthew can't be passed off as 'going himself' by sending a representative, or hoping that we won't bother to look.
