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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,939,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
If that's what you are convinced it means, you know it's crazy and a form of mind control, so you don't give it any credence. It's that simple. If other people are convinced it does NOT mean that but rather has a positive connotation of some sort, then they aren't in danger of allowing it to impact them in a negative way. So, it's all good, either way. The only people you need to worry about are the people who, like you, are convinced it means they should actually hate their family, but, unlike you, don't have a problem with that.
How can you interpret clear words in any other fashion than what they state?
That's wishing that they said something different than what they do.
How can you interpret clear words in any other fashion than what they state?
The ways in which we communicate are nuanced, cupper. Things often do not mean, literally, what the words represent. "It's raining cats and dogs," as a simple example. Figures of speech, idioms, etc.
Quote:
That's wishing that they said something different than what they do.
Why do you suppose I would wish for it to say something different than what it does, other than that taken at face value it's worthless drivel. I could easily dismiss it as such, no skin off my nose. Or, I can see if I might understand it in a way which provides positive advice, and if it does, cool.
How can you say exactly the opposite of what that passage says. It clearly says hate it clearly means hate and it clearly means that Jesus wanted people to abandon their families.
If these supposed God Jesus can say what he means and mean what he says, why is it's open to interpretation?
You completely ignore the reality that many of these verses were translated by monks who deliberately abandoned their families and the world to be disciples of Christ . . . some probably even hated them. I find it quite plausible that in deciding what Greek or Latin or English words to use to convey the actual sentiment . . . they would choose words consistent with their own emotional state.
How can you say exactly the opposite of what that passage says. It clearly says hate it clearly means hate and it clearly means that Jesus wanted people to abandon their families.
If these supposed God Jesus can say what he means and mean what he says, why is it's open to interpretation?
There are many Bible quotes that speak about loving even your enemies, so does this mean that Jesus contradicted himself? No. The essence of this teaching was and is love, but he spoke to people whose consciousness was much more limited than ours two thousand years ago, and even if the teaching was channelled by some of his enlightened disciples, they still had human limitations and were people of their time.
People who evolve spiritually go through a process of counsciousness expansion, they need to and naturally develop group consciousness and later, a universal one, but in the intial stages, they have to pratice detachment in their closer relationships in order to succeed to do that. Mother Teresa would have never ended up helping those poor children in India, if she had felt that her family, or even her religious group had to come first.
The spiritual truth is that the whole humanity is your family and that is the purpose of that message, but then, every service we can offer is important, and if that means loving and taking care of your family, it's just as wonderful and important.
Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
There is no way in Hades that I'm going to start hating my family just because some scripture says so.
Are you?
And I suspect somebody is going to give us 18 paragraphs of why one should not take this literally and why it might be out of context.
It is at the end of a parable, it is in context, it's clear what it says, it's clear what it means, it's absolutely against anything that my morals would accept.
This is kind of aligned with the Abram story and the order to sacrifice son so that the Hebrew idea of GOD might have evidence of commitment to him.
It is also a comparison thing. The duty had to be seen as so important as to propel one to set aside social norms (and other religious laws) as secondary priority because essentially the systems which influence families within societies were part of the reason why families suffered. Society is the collective of the families which make up those societies.
In order for change to occur there was a need for individuals to create a stir in the fabric of those social practices and the nature of the particular stir which Jesus proposed required that the individuals following him set aside their normal social obligations / requirements to walk a more radical pathway which was designed to show that society the error of its ways.
In effect it is saying 'if you want to take this seriously, then this is what is required of you.'
Hate being a strong word in most circumstances, seems a rather strange one to be used by someone who is said to have continuously spoken about love. The use of the word 'hate' is more questionable than the context the concept and its purpose being expressed.
It is no easy thing for someone to let go those social requirements and follow after a cause focused upon building an idea of a system (Of G()D) to replace the ancient systems which continue to control human families even today.
Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
There is no way in Hades that I'm going to start hating my family just because some scripture says so.
Are you?
And I suspect somebody is going to give us 18 paragraphs of why one should not take this literally and why it might be out of context.
It is at the end of a parable, it is in context, it's clear what it says, it's clear what it means, it's absolutely against anything that my morals would accept.
Sounds like hyperbolic language to me...
Hyperbole
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”.
Would you be able to truly follow Jesus if you hated your own life? Perhaps he was discouraging a certain type of person from needlessly following him around because that would be like hating your family and yourself.
You know... like they quit their job, sell of their stuff, leave their family homeless, all to follow him. I think Jesus would be appalled by that type of disciple.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,939,436 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Sounds like hyperbolic language to me...
Hyperbole
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”.
Would you be able to truly follow Jesus if you hated your own life? Perhaps he was discouraging a certain type of person from needlessly following him around because that would be like hating your family and yourself.
You know... like they quit their job, sell of their stuff, leave their family homeless, all to follow him. I think Jesus would be appalled by that type of disciple.
It may sound like hyperbolic language to you, however don't you think if the message is supposed to be clear to us that would be clear then it'll be clear a thousand years ago and be clear today?
You think that if Jesus was God, he'd make sure that whatever message use trying to get across, to be clear and unequivocal rather than open to wrong interpretation.
If I was God, I'd make sure that everybody would understand clearly what I meant rather than having them guess, dissect, slice, dice, misinterpret, or not give a darn.
It may sound like hyperbolic language to you, however don't you think if the message is supposed to be clear to us that would be clear then it'll be clear a thousand years ago and be clear today?
You think that if Jesus was God, he'd make sure that whatever message use trying to get across, to be clear and unequivocal rather than open to wrong interpretation.
If I was God, I'd make sure that everybody would understand clearly what I meant rather than having them guess, dissect, slice, dice, misinterpret, or not give a darn.
Then you tell me... look at the verse in context and use critical thinking like when you had to read Shakespeare...
25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said:
(this would indicate that they were traveling with him in droves....right?)
26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
("carry their cross" would mean to take on the burden of discipleship)
28“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
(Now he is relating that [verses 26-27] to a person who didn't plan ahead and quit in the middle)
31“Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
(Here he obviously is discouraging them from continuing to follow unless they are serious about dicipleship)
34“Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
“Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
If you have ears and hear.... Now go back to verse 26... It makes perfect sense that he was saying that to be a disciple you had to love your family less (because of the burden of discipleship) or even that you DID love your family less.
REMEMBER... Jesus is not talking to YOU. He was talking to an ACTUAL crowd of people thousands of years ago. Unless YOU are in that crowd... why would you take this to literally apply to YOU anyway?
However this may be applied somewhat to clergy in that they take on the burden of the church... but... not YOU.
I understand why you, and others may want to think that's what is being said, but there is nothing in those words that suggests that. As I stated before it is clear, Jesus states what he means and means what he states.
As others have mentioned, this is exactly what cult leaders are like. They strongly indoctrinate their followers to distance themselves from family and others close to them, and put all their priorities towards the cult.
yeah, the literalist cult leader sickeo's twist it all up. I totally agree with that. And yes, you want it to mean one thing and we want it to mean another. so I agree with you again.
So which stance is more logical? a literal stance or a non literal stance? A reasonable stance or an irrational stance?
Jesus doesn't talk about the normal faithful person in that quote, but about the true disciple who sees humanity as his family and operates at higher level than his immediate circle. Some very special people who have lived on this planet have been capable of that kind of love and commitment and have brought wonderful changes in the lives of many people. They didn't hate their families, but they saw their mother, brother, child and spouse in every person in need they met and offered their service. They were disciples.
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