Jesus: if you want to be my disciple, you have to hate your family

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Slaves are those who are owned by another. Jews may have had servants but they were treated as family and given the same leave as family... sabbath was observed.. etc. They weren't slaves but servants. Also, "slaves" in Judaism were basically adopted into the family. However for an accurate view we should ask a Jew.

The Romans had actual slaves.

Either way... the use of slaves int the parable was exactly as I described....

Then why do the Jews have instructions on how to beat slaves in the OT? Your denying you're Bible and what it says. Be honest or become educated.

[pinacled]

Matt 5
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.




37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by pinacled

Matt 5
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with .........

.......
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

OK.

What does all that have to do with the topic at hand?

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Then why do the Jews have instructions on how to beat slaves in the OT? Your denying you're Bible and what it says. Be honest or become educated.

First... It is not MY bible. I am not a bible-believer in any way shape or form. Second... I am honest and educated. I bet I know the bible better than most theology professors.

Third... The OT is not the Jewish bible and it is not the authority on what Judaism in the 1st century thought about slavery.

According to the TaNaKh (the actual Jewish bible), there are two references to slaves. One in the book of Shemot (Exodus in the OT) which says in chapter 21:
20 And if a man smite his bondman, or his bondwoman, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall surely be punished.
21 Notwithstanding if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his money.
22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his bondman, or the eye of his bondwoman, and destroy it, he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27 And if he smite out his bondman's tooth, or his bondwoman's tooth, he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Do you see instructions on how to beat a slave in there?

The second is in the book of Vayikra (Leviticus in the OT) which says in chapter 25:
39 And if thy brother be waxen poor with thee, and sell himself unto thee, thou shalt not make him to serve as a bondservant.
40 As a hired servant, and as a settler, he shall be with thee; he shall serve with thee unto the year of jubilee.
41 Then shall he go out from thee, he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
42 For they are My servants, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as bondmen.
43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy G-d.
44 And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession.
46 And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour.
47 And if a stranger who is a settler with thee be waxen rich, and thy brother be waxen poor beside him, and sell himself unto the stranger who is a settler with thee, or to the offshoot of a stranger's family,
48 after that he is sold he may be redeemed; one of his brethren may redeem him;
49 or his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be waxen rich, he may redeem himself.
50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he sold himself to him unto the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years; according to the time of a hired servant shall he be with him.
51 If there be yet many years, according unto them he shall give back the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.
52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubilee, then he shall reckon with him; according unto his years shall he give back the price of his redemption.
53 As a servant hired year by year shall he be with him; he shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.
54 And if he be not redeemed by any of these means, then he shall go out in the year of jubilee, he, and his children with him.
55 For unto Me the children of Israel are servants; they are My servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am HaShem your G-d.

See any instructions on beating slaves there?

I went so far as to ask the question in the "ask a Jew" thread and the response was that Jews had specific regulations (see above) regarding slavery and they are far different than what we consider slavery. Most slaves were taken in during war (an alternative to killing) or due to being so poor that they were starving. You can see the full response HERE.

That being said... You are wrong.

[pinacled]

Originally Posted by cupper3

OK.

What does all that have to do with the topic at hand?

The topic is on Hate.
Reading all or most of Jesus Word on the subject you can see the bigger picture.
Perception is an early Lesson.
It is important to consider the meaning of Jesus Word.
John 15
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


1 John 3
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


First the World hates you so a natural response is to reciprocate. A Disciple learns not to reciprocate.

[pinacled]

Originally Posted by pinacled

The topic is on Hate.
Reading all or most of Jesus Word on the subject you can see the bigger picture.
Perception is an early Lesson.
It is important to consider the meaning of Jesus Word.
John 15
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


1 John 3
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


First the World hates you so a natural response is to reciprocate. A Disciple learns not to reciprocate.

The awareness that the Birthright has to be taken away gives hope for salvation.

The awareness and practice of faith of the acquired Birthright gives salvation.

Can you tell the difference between a Jew and an Edomite?


Malachi 1:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 Is not Esau Jacob's brother? -- an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated, And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.



Luke 14:26 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

26 `If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;



John 4:22-23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

22 ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews;

23 but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;

[willingsniper]

Oh yes the bible, because a bunch of bronze age goat herders who had no idea where the sun went at night had all the answers.