Black Preacher Speak Truth About Homosexuality. (divorce, punished, Commandments, beliefs)
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Answer this, then you will "get it": What would you rather have as your income this year---The money spent printing and distributing copies of the Bible, copies of the Quran, or copies of Dawkins books?
REALITY: The only things that REALLY matter in this world...is what things matter to people!
And of the elective things that matter to people---That would be Religion and Pornography...1st and 2nd place! 3rd place is probably sports or music. But religion is #1. People won't die for the others...but they will for religion.
I pointed out that popularity substantiates nothing. And you replied with an argument from popularity to substantiate what is popular. Given this, I'm afraid I can't help you, nor would you want me to.
I don't deny that most people are some sort of theist. "Some sort" ranging from extremely nominal and unaware to deeply devoted. Why, a third of them are even Christians (by that same broad definition). I don't deny that I belong to a small, if growing, minority. So what? How is that even relevant? Oh yes ... Bible and Quaran sales vs Dawkins. Well that is surely relevant if you're marketing books, not so much if you're trying to determine actual facts on the ground.
As a theist, I agree 100% not only that people DO care about ancient writings, but that they SHOULD care. In the western hemisphere the Bible is the most prolific literature ever--by a lot. It has had tremendous influence for both evil and good. From that standpoint alone, it deserves study as a part of our history. It's the old "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" motif.
That's the problem with religious fundamentalism. They ignore the history of how scripture has been used to frequently degrade, dominate, disregard, and disrespect some human beings--and continue to practice it with the result of great social ills and continuing divisions within society.
Can there be any further reason to urge atheists to be keen students of the Bible? Someone must be on board to set us Christians straight when we so often get it wrong.
I'm a Christ follower as opposed to a christian. Christians tend to be rule followers. Jesus broke the rules on a regular basis and challenged the bible-believers of His day on virtually all points. He held the value of people as greater than the value of scripture, although He certainly revered it in His own special way (which allowed Him to disregard parts of the rules--some coming supposedly directly from the mouth of God).
But rule followers dominate the christian religion today--and frequently see themselves as superior to non-believers and even non-practioners of the faith. They dominate the airwaves. They dominate many politicians. Basically, they are very scary people.
I want YOU to be a believer. But the more important fact is I want you to become a believer on your own terms with God. Therefore I cannot force you or demand it of you or place a "rulebook" in front of politicians and ask them to make you subject to it. You must find it on your own and in your own good time--or not at all. In either instance the requirement for me is to respect not just your opinion, but you as a person.
I cannot and will not make any demands of you. The only person I can make demands of is myself. That's the problem with too many fundamentalists--they are always making demands of others and infrequently making demands to improve themselves. And that's why Pastor Smith is such a beacon of hope among too many that are millstones about the neck of society.
I've been hip to what you are saying for a little while now. This is from 4 years ago: http://www.city-data.com/forum/20667025-post459.html
But I wasn't always hip to it. I was Atheist for all my adult life until I came to this board and was enlightened by a patient and gracious member (thanx Mystic) who made me aware of what I hadn't "seen" up to that point.
Based on this...I hesitate to call anyone "very scary".
We all have our "ways", and our reasons for what we do. I'm in no position to judge anyone else.
I was a soldier at one time...justified being party to laying waste to things and people with some of the most devastating weapons known to man at the time. I'm sure there were innocents taken as well. I justified what I did as "serving my Country". Some people called me a "hero" for what I did...some still do. I'm still conflicted to this day. After the Military I got into the porn industry. Been in it for decades...involved in all genres...video, print, and live. Many think I'm a reprehensible person for that...and have told me so on this very board. OTOH...I feel one of the most evil things ever sanctioned by mankind is executing people as they develop in the Mothers' womb. Many of the same people that think I'm a bad guy for being in the porn biz, actually argue with me to defend the killing of those at the early stages of their development and think it's even worse that I condemn that, than that I am in the pornography industry. Of course...I see things the way I see them, and they see it the way they see it.
Bottom Line: Every person that has ever lived has had their ways, thoughts, and opinions on things. Unless they weren't mentally capable of it. And it is only one's opinion who's "way" is the best. And, as I said...in MY personal opinion...that Jesus Christ character was the very ultimate example of how to be.
I pointed out that popularity substantiates nothing. And you replied with an argument from popularity to substantiate what is popular. Given this, I'm afraid I can't help you, nor would you want me to.
You are wrong.
It "substantiates" the power and influence something has...its "MOJO"! Which, in REALITY, is all that really matters in this world.
When you are hip to that, you will have a greater understanding of how things REALLY go down in this world. It isn't all about "proof" or "evidence"...it can be, but doesn't necessarily have to be, and usually isn't.
Quote:
I don't deny that most people are some sort of theist. "Some sort" ranging from extremely nominal and unaware to deeply devoted. Why, a third of them are even Christians (by that same broad definition). I don't deny that I belong to a small, if growing, minority. So what? How is that even relevant? Oh yes ... Bible and Quaran sales vs Dawkins. Well that is surely relevant if you're marketing books, not so much if you're trying to determine actual facts on the ground.
How is it relevant? I'll tell ya:
It is "relevant" to show how IRRELEVANT Atheism truly is, has been, and will be for a long time to come. You want a "Actual Fact On the Ground"? Try THAT one. MOF...that's my preference...to only deal with "actual facts on the ground".
Why do you think we have so many in this world against homosexuality? The prolific power and influence of religious dogma and doctrine, due to it's great POPULARITY...that's why!!
OTOH, Atheism...That "Concept of Nothing"...is a "Nothing Concept" when it comes to true "mojo" in this world. And there are very few "Facts on the Ground" more accurate than THAT!
You are wrong.
It "substantiates" the power and influence something has...its "MOJO"! Which, in REALITY, is all that really matters in this world.
When you are hip to that, you will have a greater understanding of how things REALLY go down in this world. It isn't all about "proof" or "evidence"...it can be, but doesn't necessarily have to be, and usually isn't.
By this line of reasoning we ought to do whatever is popular and work towards more of it. Because mojo. Or something.
If you want to cynically exploit the venal and unaware nature of humanity, knock yourself out. I'm working to reduce human suffering and increase human choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
OTOH, Atheism...That "Concept of Nothing"...is a "Nothing Concept" when it comes to true "mojo" in this world. And there are very few "Facts on the Ground" more accurate than THAT!
Except that, inconveniently, atheism isn't a concept of nothing nor is it inherently nihilistic. It is a statement of unbelief in one particular thing, nothing more. And it is gaining purchase. Because humanity is clawing its way out of a very deep hole of ignorance and superstition in which it is forbidden to believe in reality and compelled to believe in concocted fairy tales.
I don't expect that "mojo" to erase the "mojos" it is successor to within my lifetime but it has already had a profound impact. You seem to forget the impact of the Enlightenment, and of science, to point out just two things. Religion didn't give us cell phones, space travel, air travel, or disease treatments, or anesthesia or automobiles. Even though many past generations of scientists and technologists were encumbered with religion, their religion didn't inform their exploration of the natural world.
And to give you an example you can relate to, religion most assuredly didn't give us pornography ;-) Although I suspect in many ways it's good for business -- another reason why you'd want to see religion continue to prevail.
By this line of reasoning we ought to do whatever is popular and work towards more of it. Because mojo. Or something.
No, I never said anything about what "ought" to be done.
I just stuck with "the facts on the ground" as to how the world REALLY IS.
Quote:
If you want to cynically exploit the venal and unaware nature of humanity, knock yourself out. I'm working to reduce human suffering and increase human choice.
Except that, inconveniently, atheism isn't a concept of nothing nor is it inherently nihilistic. It is a statement of unbelief in one particular thing, nothing more. And it is gaining purchase. Because humanity is clawing its way out of a very deep hole of ignorance and superstition in which it is forbidden to believe in reality and compelled to believe in concocted fairy tales.
I don't expect that "mojo" to erase the "mojos" it is successor to within my lifetime but it has already had a profound impact. You seem to forget the impact of the Enlightenment, and of science, to point out just two things. Religion didn't give us cell phones, space travel, air travel, or disease treatments, or anesthesia or automobiles. Even though many past generations of scientists and technologists were encumbered with religion, their religion didn't inform their exploration of the natural world.
And to give you an example you can relate to, religion most assuredly didn't give us pornography ;-) Although I suspect in many ways it's good for business -- another reason why you'd want to see religion continue to prevail.
Again...something from years ago I have offered many times:
As I have said many times before...You guys are sorta like a sports team that has a average annual record over the last FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of 2Wins against 98Losses, but goes around telling the Championship team that has always whooped up on them, about how they "don't know how to play"...And the current 10 & 90 record doesn't matter, they are, in fact, "the best team"...and, "we're gonna get you!!" All the members of the other team that has trounced them over, and over, and over again, just shake their heads and say to each other, "Get a load of those guys, we mow over them like they aren't even there, and yet they're talkin' smack!"
When you guys put together a "decent team" that has some kind of "game", maybe you'll have some "CRED"...until then you are coming from a position that is so weak that it really isn't even taken seriously, let alone looked at as a contender. And, as I said, no matter how often you declare yourselves "The Team on the Rise", your "10W & 90L" record in the contest of, Belief vs NonBelief, PROVES otherwise. And again, the current improvement in your record to "11W & 89L" (in a few cherry-picked low population places) isn't turning any heads.
So...say whatever you want...the World Standard position of **THEEEEEEEISM** will just continue to REEEEEEEIGN SUPREEEEEEEME...like it ALWAYS has.
How is it relevant? I'll tell ya:
It is "relevant" to show how IRRELEVANT Atheism truly is, has been, and will be for a long time to come. You want a "Actual Fact On the Ground"? Try THAT one. MOF...that's my preference...to only deal with "actual facts on the ground".
Why do you think we have so many in this world against homosexuality? The prolific power and influence of religious dogma and doctrine, due to it's great POPULARITY...that's why!!
OTOH, Atheism...That "Concept of Nothing"...is a "Nothing Concept" when it comes to true "mojo" in this world. And there are very few "Facts on the Ground" more accurate than THAT!
Now you're making the same mistake you always accuse us of making.
Sure ... you can assume atheism is irrelevant. Yet how do you explain the many ways in which atheism itself or atheism with the help of others managed to make some rather major changes to this country? How irrelevant can we be when a fair number of Christians are always whining and moaning about atheists and all of the horrible things we do?
Just ask them about prayer in public schools. Before that decision, some schools actually used the Bible instead of textbooks to teach kids how to read. Thanks to atheists and a secular government, teachers can no longer brainwash the kiddies into Christianity before they're out of kindergarten. I'd say that's pretty damn relevant because there's NO doubt at all that part of the reason why atheism and unaffiliation has been creeping slowly upwards is because kids aren't getting blasted with religion in their schools. Believe me, we've had an effect.
In fact, atheists have been front and center with a lot of major changes -- like finally having gay marriage legal in all 50 states. We weren't alone in that fight but atheists were deeply involved given that those bans were strictly religious in nature. Allowing states to ban gay marriage on religious grounds (and that WAS the reason) was religion grossly overplaying its hand (not to mention violating federal law).
On the local level, where atheists fight all kinds of battles no one outside of the community would know about, atheists have stopped books from the public libraries from being banned, stopped censorship on the airwaves, kept Intelligent Design out of our science classrooms, and we've been very vigilant about government agencies promoting religion. You see, it's sometimes difficult to quantify the battles atheists have won because most of our fights involve preventing religion from doing something illegal. Who can say what religion WOULD have done if they believed atheists were asleep and wouldn't notice a wee little unconstitutional behavior. The pile of dirt is a lot more conspicuous than the hole -- and most of our battles are like the hole. Keeping someone from doing something doesn't make the news nearly as much as someone actually doing something. And since atheists really aren't in the big business of spreading atheism so much as countering religion, our victories are rarely ever trumpeted across the land -- unless it's because the televangelists are whining about it and demonizing us for daring to demand our laws be upheld.
I know you would like to think we're irrelevant because it would add to your argument (though why you always side with even the most vile fundamentalists against atheists, who the hell knows). But it's just not true. And we are masters of the internet, and that means a lot more than you seem to think.
When you guys put together a "decent team" that has some kind of "game", maybe you'll have some "CRED"...until then you are coming from a position that is so weak that it really isn't even taken seriously, let alone looked at as a contender. And, as I said, no matter how often you declare yourselves "The Team on the Rise", your "10W & 90L" record in the contest of, Belief vs NonBelief, PROVES otherwise. And again, the current improvement in your record to "11W & 89L" (in a few cherry-picked low population places) isn't turning any heads.
So...say whatever you want...the World Standard position of **THEEEEEEEISM** will just continue to REEEEEEEIGN SUPREEEEEEEME...like it ALWAYS has.
And yet when it really matters, who usually ends up on top? Yeah ... atheism and secularism. Sorry, bub, but that's the way it has been for THOUSANDS of years.
Think of all the stoopid things people used to believe in but don't anymore -- because of science and secular thinking. If not for US, there'd still be billions living in the damn Dark Ages thinking plagues are a sign of God's wrath and butchering people because of the scapegoating. Look at Bosnia, look at the Middle East, hell, you can even look at the Catholics vs. the Protestants. And those are MODERN disasters that have arisen thanks to BS religious differences and fighting over which hymn is the right one to sing on a Sunday that falls on a Leap Year (or something else too stoopid to mention).
I'm not saying that atheism alone has managed to advance our civilization -- kicking and screaming though it may be -- into the future. But we've been players, working in silence, FAKING our religious beliefs just to be accepted, and working the system from within.
That's why your doctor doesn't try to put leeches on you anymore; it is why we don't run outside and bang pots, pans, and weapons together to scare off the dragon that "eats" the sun during an eclipse; it's why we don't murder animals or each other for ridiculous sacrifices to our gods; it's why no one goes to jail in the West for heresy, blasphemy, or apostasy; it's why we have things like computers, satellite television, GPS, flat screen monitors, and more nifty gadgets than anyone can shake a stick at.
It should be remembered that many atheists, agnostics, and liberal theists are scientists and professors -- those who create knowledge and invent things to make our lives easier and to make the world just a wee bit more civilized. If not for secularism creating a shield between civility and barbarism, you know as well as I do that there WOULD be Christians in this country writing and passing laws that would resemble 1215 instead of 2015. You know it. I know it. Even your pets should know it.
If you want to talk about who built really cool-looking churches or who wrote a best selling book or who has been wrong on just about everything since homo-sapiens split from the neanderthals, well, then yeah, religion is definitely batting a thousand.
Now you're making the same mistake you always accuse us of making.
Sure ... you can assume atheism is irrelevant. Yet how do you explain the many ways in which atheism itself or atheism with the help of others managed to make some rather major changes to this country? How irrelevant can we be when a fair number of Christians are always whining and moaning about atheists and all of the horrible things we do?
Just ask them about prayer in public schools. Before that decision, some schools actually used the Bible instead of textbooks to teach kids how to read. Thanks to atheists and a secular government, teachers can no longer brainwash the kiddies into Christianity before they're out of kindergarten. I'd say that's pretty damn relevant because there's NO doubt at all that part of the reason why atheism and unaffiliation has been creeping slowly upwards is because kids aren't getting blasted with religion in their schools. Believe me, we've had an effect.
In fact, atheists have been front and center with a lot of major changes -- like finally having gay marriage legal in all 50 states. We weren't alone in that fight but atheists were deeply involved given that those bans were strictly religious in nature. Allowing states to ban gay marriage on religious grounds (and that WAS the reason) was religion grossly overplaying its hand (not to mention violating federal law).
On the local level, where atheists fight all kinds of battles no one outside of the community would know about, atheists have stopped books from the public libraries from being banned, stopped censorship on the airwaves, kept Intelligent Design out of our science classrooms, and we've been very vigilant about government agencies promoting religion. You see, it's sometimes difficult to quantify the battles atheists have won because most of our fights involve preventing religion from doing something illegal. Who can say what religion WOULD have done if they believed atheists were asleep and wouldn't notice a wee little unconstitutional behavior. The pile of dirt is a lot more conspicuous than the hole -- and most of our battles are like the hole. Keeping someone from doing something doesn't make the news nearly as much as someone actually doing something. And since atheists really aren't in the big business of spreading atheism so much as countering religion, our victories are rarely ever trumpeted across the land -- unless it's because the televangelists are whining about it and demonizing us for daring to demand our laws be upheld.
I know you would like to think we're irrelevant because it would add to your argument (though why you always side with even the most vile fundamentalists against atheists, who the hell knows). But it's just not true. And we are masters of the internet, and that means a lot more than you seem to think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
And yet when it really matters, who usually ends up on top? Yeah ... atheism and secularism. Sorry, bub, but that's the way it has been for THOUSANDS of years.
Think of all the stoopid things people used to believe in but don't anymore -- because of science and secular thinking. If not for US, there'd still be billions living in the damn Dark Ages thinking plagues are a sign of God's wrath and butchering people because of the scapegoating. Look at Bosnia, look at the Middle East, hell, you can even look at the Catholics vs. the Protestants. And those are MODERN disasters that have arisen thanks to BS religious differences and fighting over which hymn is the right one to sing on a Sunday that falls on a Leap Year (or something else too stoopid to mention).
I'm not saying that atheism alone has managed to advance our civilization -- kicking and screaming though it may be -- into the future. But we've been players, working in silence, FAKING our religious beliefs just to be accepted, and working the system from within.
That's why your doctor doesn't try to put leeches on you anymore; it is why we don't run outside and bang pots, pans, and weapons together to scare off the dragon that "eats" the sun during an eclipse; it's why we don't murder animals or each other for ridiculous sacrifices to our gods; it's why no one goes to jail in the West for heresy, blasphemy, or apostasy; it's why we have things like computers, satellite television, GPS, flat screen monitors, and more nifty gadgets than anyone can shake a stick at.
It should be remembered that many atheists, agnostics, and liberal theists are scientists and professors -- those who create knowledge and invent things to make our lives easier and to make the world just a wee bit more civilized. If not for secularism creating a shield between civility and barbarism, you know as well as I do that there WOULD be Christians in this country writing and passing laws that would resemble 1215 instead of 2015. You know it. I know it. Even your pets should know it.
If you want to talk about who built really cool-looking churches or who wrote a best selling book or who has been wrong on just about everything since homo-sapiens split from the neanderthals, well, then yeah, religion is definitely batting a thousand.
First...I don't "always side with even the most vile fundamentalists against atheists". You have accused me of this before...I told you then that was not true, and it still isn't. From what I see...the Fundies on both sides can be pretty messed up...as I have oft noted.
Though I do know why you do that to me. You are such a fervent Atheist booster and proselytizer...any mention of even the factual truth about the great disparity of the power and influence of Atheism compared to Theism gets you all worked up. Because you don't like that fact.
I'm simply stating the truth of the way the world really is. When I note how prolific slavery was in this country, and that even the first notable political leaders of the U.S. were slavemasters...it's not me endorsing slavery over men being free and equal...I'm just stating how it really was. Same thing and same difference to my noting those other things.
I give Atheism and Religion whatever criticism or props I feel they have coming.
If Atheists help in the quest for what IMO is a better life for everyone...then I think that's great.
If the Religious help in the quest for what IMO is a better life for everyone...then I think that's great.
There is a difference between Religious and Atheist criticism though. The religious have their "sacred texts" that they embrace that set certain standards and establish doctrine, that they believe has been inspired by some Sovereign Deity...and the religious are influenced by that. The Atheists don't have anything like that setting the "standard" for them...they only work off their own subjective personal opinion as to how things should be, and it is all straight from them. The Fundies on each side of the equation are coming at issues with very different influences.
You make it sound like just about of all technological and scientific advances have arisen of secular roots. That is bogus.
Lots of religious have contributed. Many of the finest institutes of higher learning and hospitals doing research are religion based. From the Big Bang to the Human Gnome...religious have made major contributions.
Modern civil rights in this country was born of and lead by the religious. The Southern Christian Leadership Conference headed by it's President the BAPTIST REVEREND Martin Luther King (who gave his life for the cause) was fully a Christian Religion motivated effort on their part.
But according to you, religion "has been wrong on just about everything since homo-sapiens split from the neanderthals". But I understand, it's just your biased and prejudicial attitude toward anything that is in any way related to organized religion that has you making such over-the-top statements like that.
I'm not religious...and I don't subscribe to, nor do I endorse, Organized Religion. I'm not Atheist (not anymore)...and I don't subscribe to, nor do I endorse, Atheism. But I have no problem with anyone that embraces either Organized Religion or Atheism...as long as they are cool and aren't doing any real harm (being "bothered/annoyed/offended" isn't real harm) to anyone.
Shirina, when you strip away all the extraneous blather, the fact remains that gldn seems to think that we should just 'sit down and shut up' and accept the status quo simply because it is the status quo.
It's a good thing that there are people who do not do that or we'd still be cooking over twigs.
Shirina, when you strip away all the extraneous blather, the fact remains that gldn seems to think that we should just 'sit down and shut up' and accept the status quo simply because it is the status quo.
It's a good thing that there are people who do not do that or we'd still be cooking over twigs.
Not even that. Fire belongs to the gods. The god who gave man the gift of fire was punished for doing so.
Theists have been against human freedom / independence and any form of progress they can't control or mediate somehow, since before dirt was invented.
Sure, some scientists have been religious, and have managed to do good science in spite of that fact. Look at Newton ... his head filled with notions of alchemy and prophecy but he still managed to work out a practical physics. What might he have innovated if so many of his brain cycles hadn't been caught up in trying to reconcile religion and science, or mollifying religion while doing science?
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