Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
It's a long list, so I cannot be comprehensive. But for a top ten:
Celibacy for clergy
Gender inequality
Transubstantiation
Belief in God
Confession
Intercession by saints
For that matter, Saints
the thought that sexual acts must be open to the possibility of conception, leading to a hostility towards contraception
Original sin
Sacraments as some sort of ....elevated/holy?... Human/divine activity.
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Let's begin by building somewhat of a foundation for our discussion.
A number of the points you raise I have earlier today responded to in detail; so I would ask that you review all of today's replies. Nevertheless, I will address in greater or lesser degree each of your points.
The Priesthood is a vocation that one freely choices in response to God's call. Every vocation so long as it is the one God has selected for us receives sufficient
Grace to live that type of life and it's demands.
Of note: Celibacy is a "Church Practice" & "church practices" are changeable; unlike Dogma and Doctrine with are not. However this practice has deep roots in tradition and will not easily be changed.
The Catholic Church is now about 2,000 years old. In the early church which permitted marriage. Time and experience gave evidence that a man with divided loyalties [family vrs the church] was a far less effective manner that could not fulfill the responsibilities of either vocation as fully as choosing one or the other:
1st. Cor. 7: 31-35
"31] And they that use this world, as if they used it not: for the fashion of this world passeth away. [32] But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. [33]
But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. [34] And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [35] And this I speak for your profit: not to cast a snare upon you; but for that which is decent, and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment."
The question of the sacraments will have to wait until I have more time.
Thank you so much for your post. If you desire additional information on any of these topics; please send me a private message.
God Bless you,
Patrick
GRACE. "In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.
As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.
The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE."
FROM FATHER HARDON'S CATHOLIC DICTIONARY
If this is the politically correct version of "Why can't women be priest"; I also responded to this issue earlier today in detail.
Now Saint John Paul II issued a "Infallible Declaration" on this topic; in which in summary he gace these three reasons for the foundation of this decision:
1.
"Holy Orders" is one of the Seven Sacraments; all instituted by Christ who is God. Therefore only God has the authority and Power to override it [or them]
2.
Sacred Tradition:
Exodus 28:1: "[1] Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest' s office" This dates back about 3,000 or so years ago. And in addition to the male-only priesthood; God freely choose just One Man to be his emissary in the history of the Hebrew Nation:
Noah, Abram, Moses, the Judges, Kings Like David, and the Prophets were all male gender. Jesus then freely choose 12 male apostles [Mt. 10:1-4]]; who in turn choose other men to be Bishops and Priest.
3. Logical necessity: It was Jesus Himself who proclaimed in creating the Sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist; which is Jesus Himself, and thus it is the "sum and the summit" of our Catholic Faith.
Because it is Jesus Himself who proclaimed:
"This IS MY Body; & This IS MY Blood" and Jesus is male-gender; in order for this Miracle to be fulfilled and repeated as the original sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross of Calvary; this sacrament is "RE-PRESENTED"; as in presented in its original act; time and time again; and therefore the PRIEST MUST BE male gender in order to make Jesus Present to us in Catholic Holy Communion.
4. [I added this not Pope JP II]
Ephesians 5:23 "Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.
Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband."
While the husband and wife are equals; there must be a HEAD of the family and this role has been assigned BY GOD to men.
A few quotes from John chapter six:
[47] "Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life."
[51] "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world"
[55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. [56]
For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
This is a recent [about 500 years ago] added Theological term meant to explain the "Consecration" of bread into the very Body of Jesus; and wine into the very Blood of Jesus. This is a Miracle entrusted to Christ Church. Miracles require FAITH, and "Faith" results from God's Grace."
Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God"
Five different authors of the Bible testify to this as does the immediate acceptance and practice [then called the "Breaking of the Bread" of the infant New Church:
Acts Of Apostles 2:42 "And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the
communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers"
Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14:22-24; Lk. 22: 17-20; John all of chapter six; Paul 1st. Cor. 11: 23-30 all testify to its erality. Also one can GOOGLE "Eucharistic Miracles". I have also covered this is far greater detail in previous post of mine.
Because of the large number of points to discuss; I am taking in this post a minimalist approach: If further details or explanation is desired ask again one item at at a time please.
Here are to irrefutable evidences of God:
The Universe itself with its BILLIONS of stars, planets and galaxies; each staying where it has been placed; and with its "Natural Laws" like motion and gravity. Take for example the sun and the moon.
In the entire universe of BILLIONS of choices: only one; only planet earth can be PROVEN to support the life forms that we know of.
On planet earth with its MILLIONS of different "living things"; only one; only humanity can freely choose to love or to hate. And only humanity can construct more complex things out of less complex things: our computers for example.
In order for man [and man alone] to be enabled to make these choices certain attributes are essential to be held:
Our
Minds: not meaning here our brains
Our
Intellects: not referencing here one's "I.Q."
& Our
Freewill
John 4: 23-24 teaches us that God is:[23] "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24]
God is a spirit; and they that adore him,
must adore him in spirit and in truth"
Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 Teaches us just why humanity even exist: [7] And every one that calleth upon my name,
I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & [21]
This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise."
And Only humanity is able to do this; to Glorify our God; which then explains the very reason for our existence.
The First book of the Bible in the first chapter of that book teaches us: Genesis 1: 26-27 "[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27]
And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them."
Just a bit ago we learned that GOD IS SPIRIT!; So if God is a Spirit; how can humanity possible emmulate God?
The attributes that I shared above: mind, intellect, and freewill; LIKE GOD are both spiritual realities and also immortal. Can neither be killed or die. If you doubt this;
take the "GOD TEST"
Quantify for me your "freewill" which only a foolish person would attempt to claim does not exist. If you dressed yourself this morning you HAVE a freewill: so then what is its shape, weight, & color? Can't be done yet they exist as spiritual-realities.
So God proves man, and man proves God. In fact the entire universe exist precisely so that humanity might and CAN com to know God.
This too has been covered today in previous post. Please look them up. so here is the short course.
1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
John.20 Verses 20 to 23"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Additionally, I will point out that with Jesus choosing to Do this [another of the seven sacraments]; he was following OT tradition of Yahweh using priest [although NOT is the same now perfect manner; this was before GRACE]
From the book of Leviticus: [book of laws]; one of the original first 5 books in the Jewish Torah
Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." …
Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."
Saints fall into two categories: [1]ALL those who attain heaven; the "Beatific Vision" and meet God "face to face." [2] AND then those who through careful-research by the Church are proven to HAVE attained heaven; as two miracles are necessary as part of the NORMAL process for this declaration. Since miracles are required; God Himself attest to their being in heaven.
First allow me to explain that this too falls under the heading of changeable church practices. The Church does NOT mandate this practice; but does encourage it.
MOST OFTEN this refers to Mary; the
Mother of God: Jesus:
Lk. 1: 26-35 "[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her:
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her:
Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34]
And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
But it can also include any on the affirmed Saints:
While it is "correct" to claim that Catholics "pray "TO" Mary and the Saints; it is far more revealing to understand that what we are doing is praying THROUGH Mary and the Saints; AS ALL PRAYERS ARE INTENDED TO END WITH GOD.
We do this this as our own individual pious action choice because:
Mary and the Saints ARE proven to be in the presence of God
Mary and the Saints then take our prayer petitions AND add their own on top of ours AND then personally present them to God on our behalf. Thus adding urgency to them.
We Catholic are often accused of being Idolaters for doing this; BUT ...
But in ignorance of what the Bible ALSO teaches:
Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be
Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
So we see here hard evidence that God Himself commanded Moses to build for Him [God] two different "idols"... So can God be wrong? NO! of course not.
The lesson here is that it is NOT the image; rather it is the PURPOSE of the image that makes it sinful or NOT sinful. IF. If the item in intended to lead one CLOSER to God it is good. IF, If the item in intended to compete with God that makes it evil.
Mary and the Saints LEAD us to a closer relationship with God. Amen!
the thought that sexual acts must be open to the possibility of conception, leading to a hostility towards contraception
This boils down to WHO"S In Charge:
There are only 2 options:
God or
Ourselves
All life and death choices are God's exclusive domain.
Sexuality exist through the planet for procreation as this is the NATURAL end of such activity.
Sex is reserved for that very reason to married husbands and wife's; who also have a secondary benefit to married sex and that is what I [ME] term "marriage cement". Sex is to be enjoyed; but at the same time always open to the POSSIBILITY of life [H\God's choice].
All of us know that NOT every "unprotected sexual act" ends in a pregnancy! WHY? Because God IS in charge.
Contraception not so different in EFFECT as abortion DESIRES to assume roles and responsibilities that ONLY God can choose to do.
This is the sin of ALL sins:
When God Created Adam and Eve; which he had no obligation to do; he gave them literally a perfect existence. They had NO needs and and every "want" except one: actually BEING God, was provided for them. No death or illness, no need to work, everything was given to them conditionally:
That one condition is that they NOT eat off of ONE selected tree. There were a cazillion trees just like it that they COULD eat from; this was a TEST by God. They choose to forfeit ALL of this in the hope of becoming GODS:
Genesis 3: [1] Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? [2] And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
[5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
[6] And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. [7] And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves apron"
So the sin was greatly magnified because God HAD provided for their EVERY REAL need; and that was insufficient for them.
Because they are our "First Parents"; there sin was seen by God as so grievous that He closed the GATE [singular] to heaven [see Mt. 18:18-19]; that it warranted being passed on to all future men as a TEST; not dissimilar to that given to A & E for us to prove to God our love and fidelity to Him. And Only Baptism [another of the seven Sacraments ] could and WOULD erase this sin and all of its spiritual-death effects.
Other effects such as death, illness, work, suffering ect. continue to remind all of us that we are CREATED by God and FOR God.
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