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Same reason I am not a Christian, I found the truth.
Now, I should have written that.
Of course, I dont know if u are an atheist, haha!
I found out in an instant of realization that there was never any Fall...so
no reason to be "saved" by some blood sacrifice....awakened , yes....
guided towards Reality..yes...
That being what we see is not all there is...but a "separate God"...we get to
because of this "blood"...no.
Tho, if someone needs to believe that...that is fine with me.
it's nice to know that you think that your God is the true God but that is only your opinion and not everybody will agree with your opinion. I am often amused when individuals say that their God is the true God and then want to try to impose that belief on others, not everyone thinks or believes the same, so I find it kind of arrogant when others make that remark about "my God is the true God"...to be perfectly honest nobody knows who the true God is, we're all just speculating.
Oh and just to keep this on track... The many decades that I have lived and the many more that I intend on living I personally have found no reason to change my Spiritual belief to that of Christianity. I find that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, those three in particular are very interesting beliefs to have and they may be good for some but I do not find them of any use to myself. So I'll stay with my Spirituality, it comforts me and I am at peace with my Spiritual Belief.
I just remembered why I no longer visit (with one exception) this forum. Same old, same old. The lack of respect towards belief systems with which you do not care for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum
it's nice to know that you think that your God is the true God but that is only your opinion and not everybody will agree with your opinion. I am often amused when individuals say that their God is the true God and then want to try to impose that belief on others, not everyone thinks or believes the same, so I find it kind of arrogant when others make that remark about "my God is the true God"...to be perfectly honest nobody knows who the true God is, we're all just speculating.
Oh and just to keep this on track... The many decades that I have lived and the many more that I intend on living I personally have found no reason to change my Spiritual belief to that of Christianity. I find that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, those three in particular are very interesting beliefs to have and they may be good for some but I do not find them of any use to myself. So I'll stay with my Spirituality, it comforts me and I am at peace with my Spiritual Belief.
I just remembered why I no longer visit (with one exception) this forum. Same old, same old. The lack of respect towards belief systems with which you do not care for.
We should all expect respect for our right to believe whatever we believe, but we cannot expect uncritical respect for the beliefs themselves when they do NOT make any sense to the rational mind. It is incumbent on the believer of irrational things to explain WHY anyone else should accept them.
I've had a number of discussions in this forum over the years with people who are Christians and think everyone would benefit from that. I have consistently not seen the value proposition. I know the value propositions that I perceived years ago when I was a Christian; those expectations were not met and that had a significant role to play in my departure. But I decided to consult Google with the question "Why should I become a Christian?" in order to get a current cross section of what the sale pitch is today. Perhaps my reasons for rejecting Christianity are a little out of touch, for all I know. They are still my reasons of course, and still have import for me; but maybe I am missing advantages that at least some people would see.
This first link focuses on the opportunity to change, which of course implies you are both dissatisfied with your life and feel "stuck" with it. The value proposition here is that Christianity gives you a fresh start by sweeping away all your guilt and failures. It allows you to do a reset, so to speak. To get un-stuck. This is pretty much the sales pitch for psychiatric help, too: you go to a shrink when you are having problems in life and feel "stuck". The shrink is supposed to get you un-stuck -- to give you some outside perspective and new thought patterns and a way forward.
Further down the page, this link provides a diagnosis of the human condition: it is self-directed. Becoming a Christian is supposed to put Christ in charge, who then directs you in accord with his will, resulting in harmony with God's plan. Nothing more is said about this harmony and its benefits but the strong implication is that it results in better life outcomes. After all, they are fingering your dissatisfaction WITH YOUR LIFE as caused by being self-directed rather than Christ-directed -- what other meaning could there be than the you will NO LONGER be dissatisfied with your life because Christ will be in charge, and he won't be messing things up like you always do. You loser!
This link focuses more on sin and judgment and guilt, and it comes from good ol' CARM, so I'm sure it's Vizio-approved. Here the value proposition is the avoidance of a negative: you escape god's judgment, and are released from guilt and shame. On the positive side, you "experience god's presence" which while it doesn't guarantee anything, "things usually get better when you follow God's word and do what is right". God rewards (in some unspecified way) those who seek him (again in some unspecified way), and god wants good for us, which suggests he is biased towards giving us good things. Other benefits include some sort of (again vaguely described) tangible "fellowship" with Jesus, friendships with other Christians, and special mojo that causes the scales to fall from our eyes so that the scriptures become a "living book" to us instead of the silly book of fairy tales that atheists see it as.
This third link, I think, is the most pragmatic of the bunch. It admits that we want pleasure rather than pain:
So at least in the general long haul you can expect a real godigasm of pleasure that just keeps going and going. Pardon me while I wipe my fevered brow!
From all of this I conclude that little, if anything, has changed in the Jesus sales pitch since the 1960s, nor were my expectations off kilter some how. No one does anything without expecting to improve their quality of life, which stripped of all the BS, is that we want less suffering and difficulty and more enjoyment and ease. Christianity promises that to the acolyte considering joining up. It's undeniable, even if full of weasel words that will facilitate what happens later.
And what happens later is they sing a new tune, along the lines of "I never promised you a rose garden". It is selfish and short sighted to complain that your life even as a Christian still has substantial difficulties, frustrations and bitter disappointments, even if it is just as gnarly as it ever was BJ (Before Jesus). Those who endure to the end will be saved. God moves in mysterious ways. Sometimes life seems random but if we could only see god weaving that beautiful tapestry behind the loom of existence, we would praise him for our cancer or gout or anxiety or ruined love life or whatever has our knickers in a twist. Sometimes we think we walk alone but those footprints in the sand are actually Jesus carrying us when we couldn't carry ourselves. This present suffering isn't worthy to be compared to the eternal weight of glory that awaits us in the sweet by-and-by. And so forth.
I am not sure why I NEVER see any of these dodges and deflections and hand-waving dismissals on the "why should I sign on the dotted line" web pages of Christianity. Maybe someone can point me to some Christian truth in advertising that is somewhat mainstream. I don't think so though.
I'm willing to admit it: I left Christianity largely because not only did it not make my life better, it made it worse. And that is assuming for the sake of argument that its claims are true and its parsing of dogma and doctrine are correct and everyone else is wrong. Once I got away from Christianity I was able to see clearly for the first time that the very set of assumptions it's based on are baseless assertions rather than actual truth, much less Truth.
I am kept out of Christianity and other forms of theism today by understanding that faith is an utterly failed epistemology -- but I began to question it in the first place for the simple reason that my life was a quagmire of misery despite, and often because of, being a Christian.
The words
When I was
Struck me.
But to your life as a Christian was misery points I don't think it is anywhere implied that things on this earth get better when anyone gets born again. Those who followed Christ after Jesus the Bible shows nothing very good on earth happened to them. Steven I think got stoned. Paul got inprisioned and decapitated?
Even in the future things do not look earthly good for those believers in revalation.
Back to those "when I was a Christian" words
I recall God telling us no one will pluck those out of His hand.
Have you plucked yourself out of His hand or do you feel that you were never accepted into His hand?
... I don't think it is anywhere implied that things on this earth get better when anyone gets born again. Those who followed Christ after Jesus the Bible shows nothing very good on earth happened to them. Steven I think got stoned. Paul got inprisioned [sic] and decapitated?
Sure there are people who cheerfully chose to be martyrs for the faith, but you can't use that to sweep away tons of unambiguous and lavish promises of blessing and encouragement for believers. "My god shall supply ALL your needs according to his riches.", for instance ... unless you want to labor mightily to spiritualize away "needs" as some limited set of needs that god knows better than you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo
I recall God telling us no one will pluck those out of His hand.
Have you plucked yourself out of His hand or do you feel that you were never accepted into His hand?
I was accepted, then plucked. Not so much by myself as by awareness of my circumstances. Although I can see what you're trying to set up here: it's my own fault and I am actively rejecting god's love. I mean, you have to rationalize it somehow, so you have to claim knowledge of my circumstances superior to what I myself have.
Read your OP, again, mordant. You may not realize it (though I suspect you do) how valuable it is to have someone who has the t -shirt.
We get promised all sorts of things if only we take Jesus into our hearts. And we never bought their oil -stock in the past, so we can only say that we need better assurances and remain suspicious.
But you have been there and KNOW the bait and switch of the promises of a rose garden which you are told was never promised when it doesn't materialize.
All of the sudden the Dear leader who is going to transform your life and give you twice as much as you had before (especially if he had taken..sorry...you had lost it) once you got your party card becomes someone who is going to kick you just as bad as you ever got because either he doesn't owe you a damn thing or because it is all done to teach you valuable lessons to make you fit to live with God. The explanation of the vicious husband to the abused wife that it is only to make her fit to live in his house comes forcibly to mind.
I have a theory....that the reason people don't leave more when they realize how they've been had, is because there is nowhere to go.
I just remembered why I no longer visit (with one exception) this forum. Same old, same old. The lack of respect towards belief systems with which you do not care for.
Someone needs to learn how to spot sarcasm.
there is no sarcasm meant in my comment, I'm merely stating an observation on my part. Some religions are fine for some people and not so for others, I just happened to be one of those who do not necessarily believe in any of the man-made organized religions that force you to believe in their particular god or else. It is true that no two people think exactly alike, so why should two people believe exactly alike. We were created to be able to think for ourselves, that's what makes us individuals and as individuals we should be able to choose whomever or whatever we wish to believe in. I see no sarcasm in my previous statement nor do I see any in this, but then again you are entitled to your opinion as well as I am entitled to mine.
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..that the reason people don't leave more when they realize how they've been had, is because there is nowhere to go. 
