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Society has obviously decided that it can't risk giving pederasts second chances. I think that is reasonable. If I had had my way sexually with a minor at some point in my life, and was a registered sex offender, I really wouldn't expect a free pass. There are things you can do to utterly and permanently ruin your life. That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve.
Rom has stated he was abused in some way as a child and has "moved beyond" it. In his mind this means moving beyond holding grudges or seeking justice. He sees the expectations I've outlined above, I think, as unforgiving and putative to no good purpose.
But if society is going to adequately protect children it has to draw lines somewhere and those lines should err in favor of keeping children safe. That trumps the needs of offenders for absolution, and it even trumps the needs of victims to make light of their victimization. Rom reminds me a bit of Richard Dawkins talking about his childhood experience of "mild rape". It is, and should be, cringeworthy to make such statements. It is and should be cringeworthy for people in leadership to put former offenders in positions of power and authority. Sexual molestation of minors is not the same as getting a parking ticket or being a burglar. It is a breakdown of healthy personal boundaries that creates havoc in society. Once that Rubicon has been crossed by a person, their integrity and judgment are rightly questioned thereafter.
To be totally honest, if Romulus wants to believe that a criminal should be 'forgiven' simply because he's done his time, that's up to him -- what he chooses to believe and who he chooses to trust is really none of my business.
For Romulus: it would be nice to live in a perfect world, where every criminal eventually 'learns their lesson' and is a better person forever thereafter. Sadly, though, our world simply doesn't work that way. Criminals don't magically 'get better', and abuse doesn't suddenly 'un-happen'.
As Mordant says, a line has to be drawn somewhere, and it should be focused on protecting our children. I prefer to draw that line before more damage is done.
Incidentally, cupper, since you now seem to have become the unofficial poster-boy for rape victims you might be interested in the Tyler Kost case. Kost (18) was accused of rape and sexual assault against a dozen or so separate girls and was sentenced to prison. Since then (thanks to Facebook and the loose chatter of those who participate in social media) it would appear that Kost was set-up by the alleged victims 'to teach him a lesson'. I have no idea at this time of the outcome of the investigation that these fresh revelations prompted; however, it would appear that all little girls are not necessarily 'made of sugar and spice and all things nice' after all.
Society has obviously decided that it can't risk giving pederasts second chances. I think that is reasonable. If I had had my way sexually with a minor at some point in my life, and was a registered sex offender, I really wouldn't expect a free pass. There are things you can do to utterly and permanently ruin your life. That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve.
Rom has stated he was abused in some way as a child and has "moved beyond" it. In his mind this means moving beyond holding grudges or seeking justice. He sees the expectations I've outlined above, I think, as unforgiving and putative to no good purpose.
But if society is going to adequately protect children it has to draw lines somewhere and those lines should err in favor of keeping children safe. That trumps the needs of offenders for absolution, and it even trumps the needs of victims to make light of their victimization. Rom reminds me a bit of Richard Dawkins talking about his childhood experience of "mild rape". It is, and should be, cringeworthy to make such statements. It is and should be cringeworthy for people in leadership to put former offenders in positions of power and authority. Sexual molestation of minors is not the same as getting a parking ticket or being a burglar. It is a breakdown of healthy personal boundaries that creates havoc in society. Once that Rubicon has been crossed by a person, their integrity and judgment are rightly questioned thereafter.
I was hoping that this thread was going the way of the dodo. I had nothing else to contribute without endlessly covering the same ground. But, I was wrong. The circus IS evidently still in town and the clowns among us still persist in milking this topic for all they can. Not only the subject matter, mind, but also insulting me and making charges against me in the bargain. Thank God this is just a forum and we are mere words on a screen. I would hate to have to deal with such people in a real life situation.
And then along comes mordant, the 'voice of reason' with his eloquent words while, evidently, in agreement with the nonsense of people such as cupper and a couple of others (that's all there are, thankfully) whose posts would have to be some of the most hateful that I've come across on a forum. So, mordant, here goes.
How dare you call it 'cringeworthy' that "I" or anyone else chooses to forgive and forget former childhood abusers rather than to wallow in self-pity and be eaten away with bitterness. How dare you! YOU have no say WHATEVER in how I or others deal with our own personal situations. Who do you think you are ...God? I dealt with whatever happened to me long, long ago and I'm a far happier man for it. Do you know how rewarding it is to the inner being to forgive, mordant? Evidently not. It's a win/win for all, especially those who are sorry for their 'sins' and require forgiveness so that they can also move on. That you would use the term 'cringeworthy' as a description for those having accomplished this is actually pretty much the term I would apply to your having said it. Your psycho-babble and your own personal opinions are just that.
Okay, back to the subject at hand. This man (Hopper) was charged with rape and spent 10 years in prison. He served his term as per the law. He was released back into society as per the law. You say, "That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve." That is about as ignorant a statement as anyone could make. You sound like cupper and he lost credibility with me long ago. As have you. It's a pity really because you appear to be a cut above the others and you at least express yourself in a more reasonable manner. Anyway, from then on I determined that you had little else to say that was in any way helpful.
You DO know that it's the duty of Christians to follow their leader (Jesus) and to forgive people for their iniquities, i.e. 'sins', don't you? Well, this is what the pastor of the church and - as far as I know - the majority of his congregation have done. Are you okay with this? Or would you rather your post be pinned on to the wall in the church foyer highlighting your words, "That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve" . . .?
Such pathetic and rather frightening words from someone who might otherwise come across as someone who could be trusted to say the right words.
Since Hopper's past is known to the church congregation he will, of course, always be under careful watch even though having been accepted by them. As has been mentioned several times already, according to an official from the Kentucky Sex Offender Register, the restrictions on Hopper are pretty minimal. In other words, he doesn't appear to be the threat that you and cupper are making him out to be. That this arrangement seems to be quite okay with those that are involved rather makes anything that you and yours have to say rather moot. So, why don't we let this horrible thread go the way of the dodo?
Note: You know, something good has come out of this thread for me and I feel the need to share it. I'm serious, this is not simply convenient and meaningless rhetoric. I can't believe that I - of all people - am even saying this. This thread has renewed my faith in the real message of Christianity as taught by Jesus. I've always known this and have never forgotten but I sometimes just don't think too hard about it. I even forced myself to go to church on Sunday. A Mormon Church. I don't know if I'll go next Sunday but I really DO want to be around people that are forgiving and accepting and friendly. I've lately felt this need and I want to be a part of a Christian group of people. While I may not agree with the church theology, the fellowship side of it is what I want in my life and something that I've been missing, deep down, for several years. I was the worship leader of the SDA Church for many years. I just lost interest. This thread has made me realize that I've unwittingly and stupidly become a part of a people who live in a harsh and unforgiving, vindictive world and I really don't want any part in this crud.
Or maybe the girls wanted to 'teach him a lesson' because he really did rape or sexually assault them?
I suspect that you hope that the girls are innocent (to fit the general theme of this entire thread) just to somehow prove that girls really ARE made of 'sugar and spice and all things nice' and that boys really ARE made of 'snips and snails and puppy dog's tails'. Reality, unfortunately, sometimes indicates otherwise. I'm a realist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceist
I'll wait for what is revealed by the investigations in the court case instead of making assumptions one way or the other.
Assumptions are made based on the evidence at hand. The 'evidence' at hand so far appears to indicate that there just might have been a rather sinister plot to frame someone. 'Assuming something' is a rather natural thing to do and we all do it. This won't have anything to do with the final outcome.
Didn't you make the statement that victims come forward out of vindictiveness? If that is your viewpoint then it would look to you that people are being unforgiving. I think victims come forward to heal themselves and keep the predator from doing it to other kids. That's why I say this isn't about forgiveness.
If I am remembering correctly on another issue you said that people join groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's because they want to be controlled. Remember how you said if they don't want to be controlled they can leave and you denied the SDA practiced shunning. I countered that with my belief that they are being tricked and have no idea they are controlled. So is actually what you seem to imply is that you feel more at home around people who desired to be controlled.
To be totally honest, if Romulus wants to believe that a criminal should be 'forgiven' simply because he's done his time, that's up to him -- what he chooses to believe and who he chooses to trust is really none of my business.
Bingo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
For Romulus: it would be nice to live in a perfect world, where every criminal eventually 'learns their lesson' and is a better person forever thereafter. Sadly, though, our world simply doesn't work that way. Criminals don't magically 'get better', and abuse doesn't suddenly 'un-happen'.
No, nothing 'un-happens'. Have YOU ever done anything in YOUR life that you wish would 'un-happen'? Really? Never? I could give you a list.
But anyway, this has nothing to do with THE FACT that a church pastor and (I believe) his general congregation HAVE decided to live up to their Christian beliefs by NOT condemning this man (as per Jesus) but rather giving him the chance to redeem himself. And, whether you guys on this thread approve or not, "I" commend them for it! I really don't care what anyone on a forum thinks and I'll honor my belief face-to-face with anyone if I have to. It's a big part of my life to forgive and (yes) to forget also. Yes, it's sometimes not easy. But, I've forgiven people a number of times in my life and I'm always the better man for having done so. Forgiving also means giving that person another chance to redeem themselves. Yes, 'forgiving' could get old if that person repeated the offense but I would have to deal with that if and when it occurred.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
As Mordant says, a line has to be drawn somewhere, and it should be focused on protecting our children. I prefer to draw that line before more damage is done.
You guys keep referring to this rather obscure 'line' that has to be drawn. But, you're so vague. The ONLY way the sex offender (that you guys have conjured up in your minds) would have nothing at all to do with children or females would be to keep them locked up for the rest of their lives ...right? Otherwise they're going to encounter children and females on the street, in shopping malls, in the theater, in ...well, everywhere. These people are mingling with us 'decent folks' all the time. What the heck do you suggest they do once released into society?
Here is something for you. It would appear that when I used the term 'have conjured up in your minds' that it's a justifiable one. According to statistics that are not slanted to suit the desired outcome (as many statistics on just about ANYTHING are!) it's claimed that the majority of sex offenders will NOT re-offend. I previously offered a particular statistic on this claim. If true, this makes what you and mordant, and especially cupper who, I'm sure, gets his thoughts for the day from tea-leaves, have to say on the topic as creating unnecessary fear. You are, in effect, perpetuating the paranoia that has already been created in society by the popular media.
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Assumptions are made based on the evidence at hand. The 'evidence' at hand so far appears to indicate that there just might have been a rather sinister plot to frame someone. 'Assuming something' is a rather natural thing to do and we all do it. This won't have anything to do with the final outcome.
Not so much assumtion. More like speculation. We can speculate based on what we know or have heard. The important thing is to remember that it is only speculation which is often wrong.
Now if those girls really were molested or assaulted then it would be poetic justice. If not ....
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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When one sees a poster so vociferously impugn nefarious actions on a 13 year old girl who was raped at razor knife point, one seriously has to be concerned about why a poster takes that perspective rather than showing empathy for someone so victimized, traumatized and abused.
To not show empathy for the victim, but instead for the convicted felon, is a serious twisted mind at work. It may be too late for professional help. That type of attitude usually comes about as a result of lengthy and probably numerous interactions with other felons, most of course, who are 'innocent'.
The amount of turpitude shown by this is concerning. Very.
When one sees a poster so vociferously impugn nefarious actions on a 13 year old girl who was raped at razor knife point, one seriously has to be concerned about why a poster takes that perspective rather than showing empathy for someone so victimized, traumatized and abused.
To not show empathy for the victim, but instead for the convicted felon, is a serious twisted mind at work. It may be too late for professional help. That type of attitude usually comes about as a result of lengthy and probably numerous interactions with other felons, most of course, who are 'innocent'.
The amount of turpitude shown by this is concerning. Very.
Does it not remind you of Lot offering his virgin daughters to the mob to do with what they wanted?
I was taught this story as a kid in Sunday school as though it was quite fine.
I share your indignation. It is indeed very concerning!
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