Why is Satan supposed to be so bad? (hell, Biblical, Abraham)
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Yes, we do. We imperfect, sorrowful, suck-ful, undeserving (and blah blah blah) humans. We try to only give the criminal a punishment appropriate to the crime.
The God of the Bible? not so much. Being set on fire for ten thousand years? You figure that's equivalent to giving "the criminal what he deserves"? That's very jihad of you.
Well, certainly, LOL! If punishments fit crimes then it would all make sense, correct? That's how we operate here on earth, or ideally, anyway.
If I act like a jerknugget I do expect to be punished. I expect it here on earth, and if I believed in God I'd expect it from God as well. But where we humans sometimes get the punishment wrong, we at least TRY to make it fit the crime. According to the NT, one thought crime warrants literally an eternity of punishment. How is it that we humans manage to get things closer to actual justice than God? (And our mercy is exponentially higher.) Hmmm.
Maybe because the writers of the Good Book were vengeful and were just dying (no pun intended) to see the people who "did them wrong" burn and scream and twist? That's my take and I think it's a pretty accurate one.
And some humans are even more concerned about reform than punishment. They'd like to encourage people to experience a healthy change, rather than just desiring revenge.
ETA: Somehow I missed your last paragraph ... I see you already addressed the vengeance bit. My bad.
Satan just has a job to do, that's all. People are handed over to Satan for testing and he sifts them as wheat until they come back to the path but he is in all of us as far as my opinion goes.
I've heard most of the standard apologetics a million times and as for homework? Always heh heh. I've taken a break from the forums, as it has gotten very... combative and filled with threads with pretty elementary topics/questions which are neither interesting or informed ("Your God is bad because he drowned animals. Is He not familiar with PETA?" - a good example).
I assume you're getting the "looking for those that are worthy" part from your particular interpretive tradition, which is fine. The peshat of Job seem to hint that the satan was "walking up and down, to and for" to serve as a type of royal spy in the role of finding possible rebels and bringing them to trial - see the "Eyes and Ears" of the Persian kings. The summation I gave was extremely brief. It's been stated in much more depth in previous threads, as well as being readily available in various published works.
The character of "the satan" (I don't normally use HaSatan simply because most English-speakers are not familiar with the Hebrew definite article, and I don't like to attribute a capital "S" as it can give the wrong impression - that it was a personal name, and not a job title/description or common noun) definitely filled various roles in the HB - I don't think we could definitively pin him/it/them (seeing as it is, as you observed, not a "being") down to one specific role. Just like many things in the HB, ideas and concepts changed and evolved over time - and "the satan" was not immune to this fact.
Satan is a character that appears in the belief systems of many religions, including Christianity and Islam. In Judaism "satan" is not a sentient being but a metaphor for the evil inclination – the yetzer hara – that exists in every person and tempts us to do wrong.
Satan as a Metaphor for the Yetzer Hara
The Hebrew word "satan" (שָּׂטָן) translates to "adversary" and comes from a Hebrew verb meaning "to oppose" or "to obstruct."
In Jewish thought, one of the things Jews struggle against every day is the "evil inclination," also known as the yetzer hara (יֵצֶר הַרַע, from Genesis 6:5). The yetzer hara is not a force or a being, but rather refers to mankind's innate capacity for doing evil in the world. However, using the term satan to describe this impulse is not very common. On the other hand, the "good inclination" is called the yetzer ha'tov (יצר הטוב).
Satan as a Sentient Being
Satan appears as a proper being only twice in the whole of the Hebrew Bible, in the Book of Job and in the book of Zechariah (3:1–2). In both of these instances, the term that appears is ha'satan, with ha being the definite article "the." This is meant to show that the terminology is referring to a being. However, this being differs greatly from the character found in Christian or Islamic thought known as Satan or the Devil.
Other References to Satan in Tanakh
There are eight other references to satan in the Hebrew canon, including two that use the terminology as a verb and the rest that use the term to refer to an "adversary" or "hindrance."
Verb form:
Numbers 22:22 = an angel of the lord is sent "to satan" Balaam, meaning to thwart him on his journey
Numbers 22:32 = again used as a verb, meaning "to thwart" Balaam
Noun form:
1 Samuel 29:4 = refers to David becoming "an adversary" against the Philistines in war
2 Samuel 19:23 = refers to the sons of Zeruiah becoming a "hindrance" to David
1 Kings 5:18 = Solomon writes to Hiram reporting that there are no "adversaries"
1 Kings 11:14 = "And the Lord raised up an 'adversary' against Solomon, Hadad, the Edomite; he was of the royal lineage in Edom."
1 Kings 11:23 = "And God raised up against (David) an 'adversary,' Rezon, the son of Eliada, who had fled from Hadadezer, the king of Zobah, his master."
1 Kings 11:25 = "And (Rezon) was an 'adversary' to Israel all of Solomon's days with the evil that was caused by Hadad, and he detested Israel and ruled over Aram."
Psalm 109:6 = "Set a wicked man over him, and let an 'adversary' stand at his right hand."
1 Chronicles 21:1 = "Now satan arose upon Israel, and he moved David to count Israel.")
In conclusion, Judaism is so strictly monotheistic that the rabbis resisted the temptation to characterize anyone other than God with authority. Rather, God is the creator of both good and evil, and it is up to mankind to choose which path to follow. - How Satan Is Viewed in Judaism
7The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."
“From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.”: So is my wont to go to and fro, to see the evil ones and the good ones. Now I went to and fro throughout the entire earth and I did not find anyone like Abraham, about whom it is said (Gen. 13:17): “Rise, go to and fro in the land.” The Sages of blessed memory (Baba Bathra 16a) said that the Adversary meant this for the sake of Heaven, in order that Abraham’s merit not be forgotten by our God.
Yes, we do. We imperfect, sorrowful, suck-ful, undeserving (and blah blah blah) humans. We try to only give the criminal a punishment appropriate to the crime.
The God of the Bible? not so much. Being set on fire for ten thousand years? You figure that's equivalent to giving "the criminal what he deserves"? That's very jihad of you.
Well, certainly, LOL! If punishments fit crimes then it would all make sense, correct? That's how we operate here on earth, or ideally, anyway.
If I act like a jerknugget I do expect to be punished. I expect it here on earth, and if I believed in God I'd expect it from God as well. But where we humans sometimes get the punishment wrong, we at least TRY to make it fit the crime. According to the NT, one thought crime warrants literally an eternity of punishment. How is it that we humans manage to get things closer to actual justice than God? (And our mercy is exponentially higher.) Hmmm.
Maybe because the writers of the Good Book were vengeful and were just dying (no pun intended) to see the people who "did them wrong" burn and scream and twist? That's my take and I think it's a pretty accurate one.
Disobeying and rebelling against an infinitely good, just, loving, holy God? Yes--that is a worthy punishment for it.
Disobeying and rebelling against an infinitely good, just, loving, holy God? Yes--that is a worthy punishment for it.
An infinitely good, just, loving, holy God wouldn't punish anyone with literally an eternity of agony for one thought crime; ergo, false argument.
And again, your ideas of "just" punishment are pretty much on-par with any anti-terrorist propaganda I've ever heard. "Homicidal extremists believe THIS! They believe people deserve the HARSHEST POSSIBLE, most literally insane comeuppance for any perceived 'wrong'!" Really? Apparently, so do Christians. Hmm, that's interesting.
Because even someone with a single brain cell would be able to see the logic, much less anything minimally intelligent enough to be posting on an internet forum.
Or DO you believe in jihad-esque punishments, in general? IOW, absolutely gigantic, as painful as possible, horrific, long-term punishments for, to give an example, a single thought crime? Because if so, then okay, I get where your POV is coming from. I don't agree with it but at least I understand your general mindset on the matter and why you "believe" in this particular way.
Because even someone with a single brain cell would be able to see the logic, much less anything minimally intelligent enough to be posting on an internet forum.
You could have just said "Yes...because me, as a finite, sinful being said so."
Quote:
Or DO you believe in jihad-esque punishments, in general? IOW, absolutely gigantic, as painful as possible, horrific, long-term punishments for, to give an example, a single thought crime? Because if so, then okay, I get where your POV is coming from. I don't agree with it but at least I understand your general mindset on the matter and why you "believe" in this particular way.
Jihad suggests that human beings have a responsibility to carry out the vengeance of our Creator. I've never suggested anything remotely close to that. But God can and does do what he wants to with his Creation.
You could have just said "Yes...because me, as a finite, sinful being said so."
I could have, if I had wanted to not actually, completely or even accurately answer the question.
Maybe next time?
Quote:
Jihad suggests that human beings have a responsibility to carry out the vengeance of our Creator. I've never suggested anything remotely close to that. But God can and does do what he wants to with his Creation.
You could have just said, "Yes, I support jihad-esque overblown, torturous, cruel, vengeful punishments by God."
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