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I bet the above was covered and written up by the Holy Ghost. While in theory the members of the Trinity are equals, Yahweh and Jesus are the superstars and the Holy Spirit is pretty much Fredo. It gets some flunky assignments, but not much screen time and is never in on any critical events. Acting as recording secretary for the Big Guy's conference about Job sounds like the sort of task he would get.
Yes, but Holyghost is a go -getter. He starts out as a sorta gofer, carrying out God's orders rather like uh....uh......
So it gets to occupy the messiah at the baptism (the accusation of it getting into Mary at conception is simply later theological claptrap after the Event q.v) and trundles it about the landscape acting as a mobile battery for godpower which can be accessed by touching his robe in faith, sorta like touching a live wire. You get a dose of electric shock -therapy. And the messiah says "Who touched me?? My batteries are flat!"
But by John, Holyghost is like a celestial light shining through the messiah like a 1,000 watt pearl bulb through a grubby lampshade. It is no longer just a messenger for God - it has become god. The Event was this being doctrine imposed by a successful general on his empire.
Of course the Vatican heresy of declaring that the earthly bod wasn't just the "Son" of god (messiah) but equal with God and somehow consubstantial with it (1) so that stuff trampled by the bare feet of peasants, or baked in ovens by people who drink beer becomes on the uttering of magic words, the God in solid form, which you can ingest in easy to swallow portions, washed down with the god in liquid form, triumphed over the Arian and other heresies (declared) of a human messiah with God inside for a while and left behind to die on the cross, as actually in the gospels (2)
After this, turning into divine beings a lot of deluded humans who were no better than they should be seems a minor aberration on the part of the Vatican.
(1) and of course this absurd Doctrine (which can only be "explained" as a "Mystery") is held also by the Vatican spin off Protestant Christianities, including the Mormons, I believe.
(2)which is why the gospels of Peter was suppressed - not because it is daft (Matthew is far more daft) but as Arian heresy. In the Bible God (at worst - Matthew and Mark) forsakes the messiah. In Peter's gospel the power of God leaves him.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-28-2016 at 03:35 AM..
God: Hey! Want to be part of the Holy Trinity? The Holy Trinity is THE highest of the high, the phrase will go down in history! This concept will be so famous that millions upon millions will worship it and it will be the basis of the best-selling book of all time. What do you say?
Holyghost: Yeah!
Yesterday...
Holyghost: What happened to that whole "go down in history" thing? I see you and Jesus being worshiped...me, I just get stuck in as part of a prayer.
God: I said you'd be PART OF the Trinity. I didn't mention you'd be the bottom part...sort of like the janitor.
(1) and of course this absurd Doctrine (which can only be "explained" as a "Mystery") is held also by the Vatican spin off Protestant Christianities, including the Mormons, I believe.
You can count the Mormons out on this one. We absolutely do not buy into the doctrines of the Trinity or of Transubstantiation.
All the parts you find convenient:
They're totally and obviously true, duh!
All the parts you find inconvenient:
C'mon, they're just metaphors. Or you're taking them out of context. Or the writers of the Bible were just humans and got some parts wrong.
You can count the Mormons out on this one. We absolutely do not buy into the doctrines of the Trinity or of Transubstantiation.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Gocha. I knew there were some doctrines we agreed on.
Likewise.
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Originally Posted by Grandstander
I bet the above was covered and written up by the Holy Ghost. While in theory the members of the Trinity are equals, Yahweh and Jesus are the superstars and the Holy Spirit is pretty much Fredo. It gets some flunky assignments, but not much screen time and is never in on any critical events. Acting as recording secretary for the Big Guy's conference about Job sounds like the sort of task he would get.
The biggest objection to this is that the authors of the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament never held any concepts of "the Holy Spirit/Ghost", or even the Doctrine of the Trinity. The personification of God's "breath" (translated as "spirit" in many older Bibles) as a divine "Spirit" was a very late innovation, and the Doctrine of the Trinity finds no explicit mention in the Greek New Testament itself.
This isn't to say that the idea of a god that was able to manifest itself via hypostases is alien to the ancient Israelites. There certainly isn't anything arguing against such a concept (contrary to many critiques of Christianity as non-Monotheistic because of the Doctrine of the Trinity) - there just simply isn't such a defined and explicit concept in the Bible.
Well, I am sure who came first, but the latter part of the Book of Isaiah (better known as Deutero-Isaiah), NOT written by the prophet Isaiah, has the apparent FIRST declaration of what would become Jewish monotheism. The writing appears to be a reaction to the grieving exiled Jewish community who seemed to be at a loss at how their god fell short against the gods of Babylon in an ancient world where people believed their gods fought other people's gods on their behalf. If they were in exile under the Babylonian thumb, then it stood to reason, THEIR god, Yahweh, was weaker than Marduk. Seemed like a stroke of genius hit somebody who came up with the bright idea that Yahweh designed the whole thing to teach the Jews a lesson. This removed the idea that their god had been defeated, but rather, was in charge of the entire event and as a backhanded comment, declared Babylon's gods, non existent.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I rather like that explanation.
Yes, it's a very good one. That "stroke of genius" seems a one-in-a-million shot in the dark, doesn't it? Try to explain to people that your god wasn't actually defeated in Divine Combat, but was actually the puppet master all along! Dance!
It was only a matter of time before his brothers and sisters became de-divinized and turned into lifeless idols, or even angles and demons when apocalypticism began to rise. As several of you pointed out earlier in this thread, the ancient Israelites had no problem with Henotheism. Of course, even the idea of Henotheism and the Yahweh-Alone Movement can be interpreted as a state-sponsored institution, with full blown Polytheism having been the norm. Some of the most compelling arguments see a theophoric name in Israel: Isra-EL, with the semitic god 'El being the original papa deity, along with his lovely wife Asherah. The absolute vitriol lobbied against the asherim speaks volumes. The divorce may have been messy! But it also reveals that the Israelites had no problem with a Polytheistic view - the state-religion had a problem with it. The biggest innovation of Deuteronomy and it's History is the centralization of worship. Gotta get rid of all those pesky worship sites to El This-or-That, etc. Joshua makes the people swear to give up their gods once they cross the Jordan. Surprising that Moses never bothered to do this...
Yes, it's a very good one. That "stroke of genius" seems a one-in-a-million shot in the dark, doesn't it? Try to explain to people that your god wasn't actually defeated in Divine Combat, but was actually the puppet master all along! Dance!
It was only a matter of time before his brothers and sisters became de-divinized and turned into lifeless idols, or even angles and demons when apocalypticism began to rise. As several of you pointed out earlier in this thread, the ancient Israelites had no problem with Henotheism. Of course, even the idea of Henotheism and the Yahweh-Alone Movement can be interpreted as a state-sponsored institution, with full blown Polytheism having been the norm. Some of the most compelling arguments see a theophoric name in Israel: Isra-EL, with the semitic god 'El being the original papa deity, along with his lovely wife Asherah. The absolute vitriol lobbied against the asherim speaks volumes. The divorce may have been messy! But it also reveals that the Israelites had no problem with a Polytheistic view - the state-religion had a problem with it. The biggest innovation of Deuteronomy and it's History is the centralization of worship. Gotta get rid of all those pesky worship sites to El This-or-That, etc. Joshua makes the people swear to give up their gods once they cross the Jordan. Surprising that Moses never bothered to do this...
I know we have touched on this a few times here and there, Whoppers. I am sure whether it was deliberate or not, but if in truth, the Israelites felt threatened by "outside forces," then it was natural SOME developed a theological concept that would draw and unify the people around a singular deity. On an economic level, it also would prove valuable. Instead of having the people spreading their resources around to competing deities and temples, funneling it to just one could (and did) make some people very rich and powerful.
A good portion of the Old Testament is a template for cults and Donald Trump's apparent vision for America. Rally around a fear and disdain for a common enemy or enemies. "They bad - we good." Rally around a deity or flag (nationalism) - "Our god is the best thing since sex. HE good - every other one bad and nonexistent." Preach distance and "separation" from icky folks. "They nasty perverts with hot women. - We so clean, we even make our menstruating women sit outside alone."
Rally around a fear and disdain for a common enemy or enemies.
I remember reading about a Caesar that claimed to do exactly that with the Romans and added, "and they will gladly give up their rights [freedoms?]...How do I know this?...I am Caesar and I have done this!"...
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Dance! 
