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Whoppers (and those interested), some years back, just after my DEconversion from Christianity, completely on my own and without knowledge of the debate (if there is still one) about W. M. L. de Wette's dissertation of the book of Deuteronomy, I was rereading through the books of Kings and Chronicles. They were some of my favorite biblical books. I came across the story of Josiah and his story always fascinated me, but without the restrictive idea that I HAD to include the divine in my understanding of his times, I reread it more with a historical perspective.
Funny, it all started with something I read somewhere that mentioned that the young king was a protege of Jeremiah and Hilkiah, whom some believe was the father of Jeremiah. At the time, I realized that leading up to Josiah's reign, there were internal religious struggles within the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. While there were the more known religious wars against Baal, internally there was an apparent fight to push the Yahweh cult to supremacy and it appears the Baal cult was its biggest rival.
By Josiah's time, the northern kingdom of Israel had come to an end, but he was just a child (age 8) when he became king. By reading between the lines, it appears that Yahwists like Jeremiah and Hilkiah served as mentors. Not surprisingly then, just a few years into his reign, after the book of the law was allegedly REdiscovered, we find him going on a fanatical purge to remove ALL elements of rival worship. He went as far as having priests of other cults put to death and even crossed over into the old boundaries of the former kingdom of Israel, along the border, to remove any vestiges of rival gods and their worship.
It is no surprise that Josiah is lauded for his actions and given the noble epitaph of being the only Judean king to emulate the great Yahwist king - David. In fact, his reforms comes on the heels of the long, abominable 50 year reign of his grandfather, Manasseh who is an interesting story himself (see a subsequent post for this).
It is that "Book of the Law" that some scholars have identified as the book of Deuteronomy that is critical in dating the bible. Many scholars note that the book was NOT an earlier book, but rather, a NEW book, at least in part, that was written during or just before the reign of the king as propaganda material to justify his purge. Scholars point to its prose as opposed to poetic writing. It's writing lends more to a later period than the times of Moses in earlier Israelite history.
Based on these factors, what can be drawn from all of this?
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 08-19-2016 at 08:07 AM..
King Manasseh was the grandfather of Josiah and the Yahwist writers of his story are in no way, friendly to him because of his lack of respect for the Yahweh cult. Under his reign open religion was the order as opposed to the restrictive requirement of the Yahweh cult that sought to become the state religion. What is interesting about his story is that the Chronicler, apparently seeking to drive home the point of repentance and return to Yahweh would avert the threat of Assyria or Babylon, mentions a story of Manasseh being dethroned and carted off as a prisoner to Assyria, but was restored to the throne AFTER seeking Yahweh. Oddly enough, however, there is NO account of this cute story in the book of Kings or in the Assyrian records.
Whoppers (and those interested), some years back, just after my DEconversion from Christianity, completely on my own and without knowledge of the debate (if there is still one) about W. M. L. de Wette's dissertation of the book of Deuteronomy, I was rereading through the books of Kings and Chronicles. They were some of my favorite biblical books. I came across the story of Josiah and his story always fascinated me, but without the restrictive idea that I HAD to include the divine in my understanding of his times, I reread it more with a historical perspective.
Funny, it all started with something I read somewhere that mentioned that the young king was a protege of Jeremiah and Hilkiah, whom some believe was the father of Jeremiah. At the time, I realized that leading up to Josiah's reign, there were internal religious struggles within the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. While there were the more known religious wars against Baal, internally there was an apparent fight to push the Yahweh cult to supremacy and it appears the Baal cult was its biggest rival.
By Josiah's time, the northern kingdom of Israel had come to an end, but he was just a child (age 8) when he became king. By reading between the lines, it appears that Yahwists like Jeremiah and Hilkiah served as mentors. Not surprisingly then, just a few years into his reign, after the book of the law was allegedly REdiscovered, we find him going on a fanatical purge to remove ALL elements of rival worship. He went as far as having priests of other cults put to death and even crossed over into the old boundaries of the former kingdom of Israel, along the border, to remove any vestiges of rival gods and their worship.
It is no surprise that Josiah is lauded for his actions and given the noble epitaph of being the only Judean king to emulate the great Yahwist king - David. In fact, his reforms comes on the heels of the long, abominable 50 year reign of his grandfather, Manasseh who is an interesting story himself (see a subsequent post for this).
It is that "Book of the Law" that some scholars have identified as the book of Deuteronomy that is critical in dating the bible. Many scholars note that the book was NOT an earlier book, but rather, a NEW book, at least in part, that was written during or just before the reign of the king as propaganda material to justify his purge. Scholars point to its prose as opposed to poetic writing. It's writing lends more to a later period than the times of Moses in earlier Israelite history.
Based on these factors, what can be drawn from all of this?
The question that occurs to me is: Can we base any conclusion on these factors? Isn't the Josiah story something of a myth?
Ps. No forget it. I'm thinking of some other Biblical character. I'm totally iggerant here.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-19-2016 at 10:16 AM..
The question that occurs to me is: Can we base any conclusion on these factors? Isn't the Josiah story something of a myth?
Well, there is that school of thought, but I am one of those people who do not always believe the Jews pulled all of these complex characters and stories out of their arses. I lean more toward them being actual people, but the stories around them were exaggerated, embellished, given a divine spin or yes, even made up.
My belief here is, Josiah lived under the tutelage of yahwehists and instituted some reforms to the benefit of the Yahweh cult. The writer, in underscoring the importance of serving Yahweh and him alone, props up the king as a shining example of who the national religion should be tailored around. All that "the Lord" fluff is the mythical part.
I am not in a place to look him up, but I know that some of these later kings are coroborrated in other people's accounts. Not sure if he was one of them.
I am not in a place to look him [Josiah] up, but I know that some of these later kings are coroborrated in other people's accounts. Not sure if he was one of them.
As far as I know, there are no direct references to him.
There is an interesting seal dated (paleographically) to the 2nd half of the 7th century BCE that mentions an individual called ʿAśayāhū:
(Belonging) to ʿAśayāhū
"servant" (minister) of the king
(COS 2.79)
who may be the same ʿAśayā(h) mentioned in II Kings 22:12 and 14 (as well as II Chronicles 34:20):
and the king commanded Hilkiyya the priest and Ahikam son of Shafan and Akhbor son of Mikhaya and Shafan the Scribe and Asayah [ʿAśayā] Servant of the king, saying.....
(II Kings 22:12 SB Fox).
You will notice the theophoric element of the name differs slightly (yāhū vs yāh) but refers to the Israelite deity nonetheless. Many translations obscur the final consonant of ʿAśayā(h), but it definitely is there: עֲשָׂיָה .
Anyways, not really "evidence" for Josiah - just a possible clue.
Whoppers (and those interested), some years back, just after my DEconversion from Christianity, completely on my own and without knowledge of the debate (if there is still one) about W. M. L. de Wette's dissertation of the book of Deuteronomy, I was rereading through the books of Kings and Chronicles. They were some of my favorite biblical books. I came across the story of Josiah and his story always fascinated me, but without the restrictive idea that I HAD to include the divine in my understanding of his times, I reread it more with a historical perspective.
Funny, it all started with something I read somewhere that mentioned that the young king was a protege of Jeremiah and Hilkiah, whom some believe was the father of Jeremiah. At the time, I realized that leading up to Josiah's reign, there were internal religious struggles within the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. While there were the more known religious wars against Baal, internally there was an apparent fight to push the Yahweh cult to supremacy and it appears the Baal cult was its biggest rival.
By Josiah's time, the northern kingdom of Israel had come to an end, but he was just a child (age 8) when he became king. By reading between the lines, it appears that Yahwists like Jeremiah and Hilkiah served as mentors. Not surprisingly then, just a few years into his reign, after the book of the law was allegedly REdiscovered, we find him going on a fanatical purge to remove ALL elements of rival worship. He went as far as having priests of other cults put to death and even crossed over into the old boundaries of the former kingdom of Israel, along the border, to remove any vestiges of rival gods and their worship.
It is no surprise that Josiah is lauded for his actions and given the noble epitaph of being the only Judean king to emulate the great Yahwist king - David. In fact, his reforms comes on the heels of the long, abominable 50 year reign of his grandfather, Manasseh who is an interesting story himself (see a subsequent post for this).
It is that "Book of the Law" that some scholars have identified as the book of Deuteronomy that is critical in dating the bible. Many scholars note that the book was NOT an earlier book, but rather, a NEW book, at least in part, that was written during or just before the reign of the king as propaganda material to justify his purge. Scholars point to its prose as opposed to poetic writing. It's writing lends more to a later period than the times of Moses in earlier Israelite history.
Based on these factors, what can be drawn from all of this?
2 Kings:
[8] "And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
[9] And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.
[10] And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
[11] And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
[12] And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
[13] Go ye, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."
2 Chronicles
[14] "And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.
[15] And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.
[16] And Shaphan carried the book to the king, and brought the king word back again, saying, All that was committed to thy servants, they do it.
[17] And they have gathered together the money that was found in the house of the LORD, and have delivered it into the hand of the overseers, and to the hand of the workmen.
[18] Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
[19] And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.
[20] And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king's, saying,
[21] Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book."
The book of the law that was "found" was Deuteronomy. This occurred during the reign of King Josiah. (649–609 BCE) Jews and Christians have proclaimed Deuteronomy to be a valid book of the law, written by the hand of Moses under the inspiration and guidance of God Himself. And so Deuteronomy is firmly entrenched as the fifth book of the Torah/Pentateuch by devout Jews and Christians today.
Wikipedia
Moses
Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 (120 years) BCE;[9] Jerome gives 1592 BCE,[10] and James Ussher 1571 BCE as his birth year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses
So Moses is believed to have lived circa the 14th or 15th century BC. Construction of the first temple at Jerusalem, known as Solomon's temple, began during the reign of king Solomon.
Wikipedia
Solomon
The conventional dates of Solomon's reign are circa 970 to 931 BC, normally given in alignment with the dates of David's reign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon
So somehow Moses managed to hide a document he wrote which no one suspected even existed in the Temple of Solomon which would not be built until five or six centuries after Moses had died, where it would remain undetected for another three centuries, when it was then "found" by Levite high priest Hilkiah. Those paying careful attention here may be forgiven if they notice that the math seems to be somewhat askew.
So what does this new "book of the law" say?
Deut.12
[1] "These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.
[2] Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
[3] And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
[4] Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.
[5] But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
[6] And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:"
No more consecrating your offerings to the Lord in any place but the place God chooses, and it better be the very finest offerings you have, by HIM, or else. And of course by the time the "lost" book was "found," the place of His choosing had long been chosen. The temple in Jerusalem, the very stronghold of the Levite priests.
Deut.12
[16] "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
[17] Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."
Deut.18
[1] "The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
[2] Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
[3] And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
[4] The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him."
Wow! What a huge break for the Levites! Three times a year you must come to Jerusalem and make your offering to the Lord of the finest things you possess. And once your offering is consecrated it becomes the property of the Levites.
But there is more:
[/i]Deut. 17
[14] When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
[15] Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother."[/i]
The Jews had never had a king over them during the time of Moses. But Moses "prophesizes" that one day they will have their own land and will one day have a king over them. Well wasn't Moses clairvoyant. 700 years later the Jewish nation does indeed have a king. And Deuteronomy endorses it, making the position of King one chosen by God Himself. What a break for King Josiah! He now holds his position by right as the Divine Will of God.
What an amazing boon for the king and the Levite priests Deuteronomy proved to be. Deuteronomy could hardly have been more beneficial to them then if they had written it themselves.
Wikipedia
Deuteronomy
Composition history
Since the evidence was first put forward by W.M.L de Wette in 1805, scholars have accepted that the core of Deuteronomy was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC in the context of religious reforms advanced by King Josiah. (reigned 641–609 BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Deuteronomy
2 Kings:
[8] "And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
[9] And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.
[10] And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
[11] And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
[12] And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
[13] Go ye, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."
2 Chronicles
[14] "And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses.
[15] And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.
[16] And Shaphan carried the book to the king, and brought the king word back again, saying, All that was committed to thy servants, they do it.
[17] And they have gathered together the money that was found in the house of the LORD, and have delivered it into the hand of the overseers, and to the hand of the workmen.
[18] Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
[19] And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.
[20] And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king's, saying,
[21] Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD, to do after all that is written in this book."
The book of the law that was "found" was Deuteronomy. This occurred during the reign of King Josiah. (649–609 BCE) Jews and Christians have proclaimed Deuteronomy to be a valid book of the law, written by the hand of Moses under the inspiration and guidance of God Himself. And so Deuteronomy is firmly entrenched as the fifth book of the Torah/Pentateuch by devout Jews and Christians today.
Wikipedia
Moses
Rabbinical Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 (120 years) BCE;[9] Jerome gives 1592 BCE,[10] and James Ussher 1571 BCE as his birth year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses
So Moses is believed to have lived circa the 14th or 15th century BC. Construction of the first temple at Jerusalem, known as Solomon's temple, began during the reign of king Solomon.
Wikipedia
Solomon
The conventional dates of Solomon's reign are circa 970 to 931 BC, normally given in alignment with the dates of David's reign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon
So somehow Moses managed to hide a document he wrote which no one suspected even existed in the Temple of Solomon which would not be built until five or six centuries after Moses had died, where it would remain undetected for another three centuries, when it was then "found" by Levite high priest Hilkiah. Those paying careful attention here may be forgiven if they notice that the math seems to be somewhat askew.
So what does this new "book of the law" say?
Deut.12
[1] "These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.
[2] Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
[3] And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
[4] Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.
[5] But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
[6] And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:"
No more consecrating your offerings to the Lord in any place but the place God chooses, and it better be the very finest offerings you have, by HIM, or else. And of course by the time the "lost" book was "found," the place of His choosing had long been chosen. The temple in Jerusalem, the very stronghold of the Levite priests.
Deut.12
[16] "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
[17] Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."
Deut.18
[1] "The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
[2] Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
[3] And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
[4] The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him."
Wow! What a huge break for the Levites! Three times a year you must come to Jerusalem and make your offering to the Lord of the finest things you possess. And once your offering is consecrated it becomes the property of the Levites.
But there is more:
[/i]Deut. 17
[14] When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
[15] Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother."[/i]
The Jews had never had a king over them during the time of Moses. But Moses "prophesizes" that one day they will have their own land and will one day have a king over them. Well wasn't Moses clairvoyant. 700 years later the Jewish nation does indeed have a king. And Deuteronomy endorses it, making the position of King one chosen by God Himself. What a break for King Josiah! He now holds his position by right as the Divine Will of God.
What an amazing boon for the king and the Levite priests Deuteronomy proved to be. Deuteronomy could hardly have been more beneficial to them then if they had written it themselves.
Wikipedia
Deuteronomy
Composition history
Since the evidence was first put forward by W.M.L de Wette in 1805, scholars have accepted that the core of Deuteronomy was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC in the context of religious reforms advanced by King Josiah. (reigned 641–609 BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Deuteronomy
Beautiful! I am not sure how all of us could miss the pure, unadulterated truth telling in the bible concerning this matter.
Beautiful! I am not sure how all of us could miss the pure, unadulterated truth telling in the bible concerning this matter.
Yes, Deuteronomy's major concern is establishing Centralized worship, which helps date it to a perod in which there was a place of Centralized worship.
There are also some ethical advances in some of the "laws".
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