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It's said that we can know a person by their fruit. It's crystal clear this guy is not lifting up the name of Jesus...but is instead lining his own pockets. There would be no reason to believe this guy is a Christian based on this.
More of the same. Someone does not do christianity like you do, then you simply wash your hands of him and declare him not christian. Who made you the arbiter of what constiutes christian or not? Seems to me you people spend a lot of time calling other christians not real christians.
More of the same. Someone does not do christianity like you do, then you simply wash your hands of him and declare him not christian. Who made you the arbiter of what constiutes christian or not? Seems to me you people spend a lot of time calling other christians not real christians.
Are you suggesting that running an illegal gambling ring out of your garage and serving alcohol to minors is Biblically supported? If so, I'm very eager to hear your justification for it.
Hebrews 13:5: "Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'"
Luke 12:15: "And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
It's pretty clear that running an illegal casino in your garage does not constitute Christian-like behavior.
It seems to me that you people spend a lot of time hunting bad apples to condemn Christianity with.
More of the same. Someone does not do christianity like you do, then you simply wash your hands of him and declare him not christian. Who made you the arbiter of what constiutes christian or not? Seems to me you people spend a lot of time calling other christians not real christians.
Good grief. Get over yourself.
The thing is...we never thought this guy was "one of us". it's always been clear that he's a money-grubbing televangelist.
Are you suggesting that running an illegal gambling ring out of your garage and serving alcohol to minors is Biblically supported?
I recall saying nothing even remotely of the sort. Perhaps you can pull up the quote from which you pulled this? That is, of course, if you did not actually pull it out of an orifice not normally associated with communication.
What I AM saying is that I have a lot of experience with Christians, as individuals or groups.... pointing at other Christians..... usually as individuals or groups..... and simply washing their hands of them by calling them "not real Christians" or in this case "atheists".
So it is possibly best if you keep your words out of my mouth, given I clearly have more than enough of my own in there.
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Originally Posted by Skyl3r
It seems to me that you people spend a lot of time hunting bad apples to condemn Christianity with.
Again by all means quote me doing that. You will not find it. What you WILL find is me calling a spade a spade on occasions when it is, in fact, a spade.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Good grief. Get over yourself.
Lets stick with mature and relevant adult responses shall we? Or, to put that in the vernacular: You first.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
The thing is...we never thought this guy was "one of us". it's always been clear that he's a money-grubbing televangelist.
And there are a HOST of such televangelists who identify as Christian. But as I said there is no end of you guys lining up to tell others who is, and who is not, a Christian. I have seen it on forums. I have seen it on the streets. I have seen it in debates. I have even seen it in politics such as, to give but one example, the many people lining up to suggest Mitt Romney was not a real Christian when he was running and I have heard people suggest the Quaker religion not even a real religion for example. I am related to one Quaker by marriage who currently holds a State Governor position and he hears this accusation a lot too.
I just see it all the time.
And this is hardly surprising really given Christianity has over 33000 officially recognized sects, off shoots, versions and so forth. Many of whom think many others of whom are "not really christian".
But yes it is an accusation I hear often. When someone does something bad they were never really a Christian. Or when one converts to atheism, like Dan Barker for example, they are told they were never really a Christian to begin with. Which is certainly comical in Barkers case as they rarely come MORE christian than he used to be.
Yea theists judging theists as to how real their theism is is just very common. You do not generally see that with atheists. We do not generally go around denying bad people were atheist if in fact they were atheist. We would certainly (and rightly) question the validity of whether their atheism had anything to do with their actions.... but we rarely (if ever) question whether they really are atheist at all.
In fact in all my experience with atheists I can only think of one person who I do not think was really who and what he claimed to be. And that happens to be a now ex- user of this very forum who has not been around for awhile.
I am sure it seems like a great tactic though. Every time someone lets your side down, simply disown them entirely. Job done. If I were a theist however, I would be intellectually honest enough to say "Right, here is a christian, one of us, and he has strayed. Lets own that and help him through it to a better path".
Why? Because as you yourself said.... you know them by their fruits. And if I understand anything about Christianity at all, nothing about it suggests to me that disowning and disavowing people who stray as "not real christians" or "He must be an atheist really" is what it recommends. But since you like judging whether someone is "christian" or not.... perhaps you would end up finding I am actually more "christian" than people who actually identify with that label. I certainly do not think you have made yourself a good representative of your religion on this forum though, let alone one with a pedestal from which to evaluate the chritianityness of others. Perhaps "Good grief. Get over yourself." would be well aimed at your nearest mirror therefore, if you feel compelled to spew out that sort of rhetoric at all.
And there are a HOST of such televangelists who identify as Christian. But as I said there is no end of you guys lining up to tell others who is, and who is not, a Christian. I have seen it on forums. I have seen it on the streets. I have seen it in debates.
And they demonstrate by their actions and their teachings that they are NOT Christians. It's crystal clear. But hey...you apparently know better than Christians who is and isn't one of us.....
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I have even seen it in politics such as, to give but one example, the many people lining up to suggest Mitt Romney was not a real Christian when he was running and I have heard people suggest the Quaker religion not even a real religion for example. I am related to one Quaker by marriage who currently holds a State Governor position and he hears this accusation a lot too.
I just see it all the time.
Again....what can I say? You think you're an expert on it...
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And this is hardly surprising really given Christianity has over 33000 officially recognized sects, off shoots, versions and so forth. Many of whom think many others of whom are "not really christian".
Yay. This tired old lie AGAIN. This was just brought up what? A week ago? And no one has provided any kind of list of these 33,000.
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But yes it is an accusation I hear often. When someone does something bad they were never really a Christian. Or when one converts to atheism, like Dan Barker for example, they are told they were never really a Christian to begin with. Which is certainly comical in Barkers case as they rarely come MORE christian than he used to be.
That is what the Bible says. 1 John 2:19.....I mean, Christians DO hold to believing the Bible as authoritative. At least that's what us Christians say. But we're not the experts that you atheists that aren't even a part of our religion are....
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Yea theists judging theists as to how real their theism is is just very common. You do not generally see that with atheists. We do not generally go around denying bad people were atheist if in fact they were atheist. We would certainly (and rightly) question the validity of whether their atheism had anything to do with their actions.... but we rarely (if ever) question whether they really are atheist at all.
You're judging me and telling me I can't define my religion....
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In fact in all my experience with atheists I can only think of one person who I do not think was really who and what he claimed to be. And that happens to be a now ex- user of this very forum who has not been around for awhile.
Why would you care to? You're here attacking religious people on a religious message board. If you wanted to attack atheists you'd probably be on an atheism board.
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I am sure it seems like a great tactic though. Every time someone lets your side down, simply disown them entirely. Job done. If I were a theist however, I would be intellectually honest enough to say "Right, here is a christian, one of us, and he has strayed. Lets own that and help him through it to a better path".
Again...it's what our Scripture actually says. I mean..I know you find it inconvenient that we actually adhere to it...
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Why? Because as you yourself said.... you know them by their fruits. And if I understand anything about Christianity at all, nothing about it suggests to me that disowning and disavowing people who stray as "not real christians" or "He must be an atheist really" is what it recommends. But since you like judging whether someone is "christian" or not.... perhaps you would end up finding I am actually more "christian" than people who actually identify with that label. I certainly do not think you have made yourself a good representative of your religion on this forum though, let alone one with a pedestal from which to evaluate the chritianityness of others. Perhaps "Good grief. Get over yourself." would be well aimed at your nearest mirror therefore, if you feel compelled to spew out that sort of rhetoric at all.
I find it interesting that you chastise me for daring to suggest who a Christian is. By doing so you are telling me that YOU know better than me who is and isn't a part of the religion. You even suggest that to do so you are "more Christian". So..you actually seem to think that being an atheist is consistent with Christianity.
I recall saying nothing even remotely of the sort. Perhaps you can pull up the quote from which you pulled this?
Vizio's claim was that based on this guys actions, it's reasonable to assess that he was not a Christian.
Your response was:
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Who made you the arbiter of what constiutes christian or not?
To which I responded that Vizio isn't claiming to be the arbiter. The Bible and the teachings of Jesus are. The implications of asking Vizio "who made you the arbiter of what constitutes Christian or not" is that Vizio must be saying something not inline with what the Bible preaches, otherwise he wouldn't be the arbiter.
If this isn't the case, then you must agree that Vizio isn't trying to be the arbiter of what constitutes Christian and your statement was pointless.
If it is the case, then please demonstrate that running a gambling ring and giving alcohol to minors is defensible in the Bible.
I feel that I've adequately demonstrated that it is not.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
That is, of course, if you did not actually pull it out of an orifice not normally associated with communication.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
So it is possibly best if you keep your words out of my mouth, given I clearly have more than enough of my own in there.
Yeah, much more than enough
That said, Lets stick with mature and relevant adult responses shall we?
And they demonstrate by their actions and their teachings that they are NOT Christians. It's crystal clear. But hey...you apparently know better than Christians who is and isn't one of us..... Again....what can I say? You think you're an expert on it... Yay. This tired old lie AGAIN. This was just brought up what? A week ago? And no one has provided any kind of list of these 33,000.
The only thing I am claiming to be an "expert" on here is my observations, in that all I have offered is my observations. I am telling you what I have observed. Who else, but me, is an expect on what I have observed? You?
And I am telling you that what I have observed, very often, is Christians disowning Christians often as "not real christians" or as we saw on this very thread "atheists". Or disowning people who leave Christianity for atheism as "never having been really christian in the first place". And so on.
And the figure 33000 is not just plucked out of thin air. It comes from the World Christian Encyclopedia. So if you have a problem with an encyclopedia sourced citation, take it up with the Encyclopedia. Not with me.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
That is what the Bible says. 1 John 2:19.....I mean, Christians DO hold to believing the Bible as authoritative. At least that's what us Christians say. But we're not the experts that you atheists that aren't even a part of our religion are.... You're judging me and telling me I can't define my religion....
Except you are lying now as you will NOWHERE find me telling you how you can, or can not, define your religion. Is what I am saying so difficult for you to rebut that you have to attack me for saying things I never actually said? How "Christian" of you I guess.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Why would you care to?
Answer that yourself by asking why YOU care to. Since I do not do it, why would I care to? You are asking me why I would care to do something that I JUST told you I do not actually do? Are you even trying to make sense now???
Why would people in general care to? I guess they do not want their particular group to look bad, so disowning those that make it look bad.... in their mind at least..... leaves their group looking clean.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
You're here attacking religious people
Nope. I am not. Never have. Likely never will.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I mean..I know you find it inconvenient that we actually adhere to it...
Funny when you say you "know" something about me, you are actually entirely wrong. Seems you "know" nothing of the sort. The posts you are (pretending) to read and reply to here are me saying nothing about what they adhere to. What I AM actually talking about is how many theists rush to disown other theists when they in some way FAIL to adhere to it.
And my understanding of Christianity is quite the opposite of that. My understanding of it is that when someone fails or strays or falters you pick them up and help them back on track. Christianity for me, were I Christian, would not be pointing at a failure and saying "He is atheist really!!!! Nothing to do with us!!!!!" but in fact owning it. Instead.... pointing at a failure and saying "Yes, he is one of us, we are not ashamed of him, and we will walk with him not just despite his failures, but BECAUSE of them".
THAT is Christianity to me. Not this Shunning, disowning, hand washing brand of it I see too readily too often. Pitchforks and torches do not make a religion for me. YMMV I guess.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
You even suggest that to do so you are "more Christian".
Not what I suggested at all and in fact I worded what I wrote VERY carefully in actual prediction of you misrepresenting me in EXACTLY this way. Amazing when a source of dishonest is SO consistent that you know what they will do and say before they do.
What I said was that if YOU are keen to judge people on their Christianityness then YOU might find I am more christian than many people who claim to be christian.
So no, I was at NO point saying I am more Christian. I was commenting on YOUR judgement of Christianity in others and where YOU might judge me to be where YOU to try to with any honesty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
So..you actually seem to think that being an atheist is consistent with Christianity.
"Seem" being a strong word in this case.
What I DO think is that there is nothing morally or ethically useful in Christianity that actually requires one to be theist in order to subscribe to it. If you strip away the unsubstantiated nonsense and woo from Christianity and leave only the real world moral and ethical teachings from it...... then I doubt you will find much in what remains that has lost any quality for the purge.
Take, as I said above, the quality of not shunning and disowning people who falter on the path. But to own it, say "No this is one of us, just one of us who is struggling", and then giving your time and energy to help them back on what you believe to be the right path.
THAT is one of the "fruits" I think Christianity tries to teach and guess what.... it is ENTIRELY compatible with atheist and humanist ideals. Go figure. And there are multiple examples of that. There is a reason that, despite our massive theological differences, the general ideals of atheists and Christians are essentially mostly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
It's amazing....you are a confused individual.
Quite the opposite it seems. But you projecting your failures on to me, does not magically make me take them on.
Vizio's claim was that based on this guys actions, it's reasonable to assess that he was not a Christian.
Firstly, if you wish to keep up on the conversation it was not Vizios claim I was referring to, it was GoCardinals.
Secondly the claim I took issue with was not simply the claim he was "not Christian". GoCardinals decided, based on no substantiation of ANY type at all it seems, that the guy was in fact full on atheist without any belief in any god at all.
So your biblical references and Vizios are not really relevant at all to defend the comment I was actually addressing, is it? You can equivocate all you like, pointlessly as I pointed out, over whether he was Christian or not. But what we saw was someone deciding he was "an atheist in pastors clothing". Is THAT defensible? Would you even want to TRY to defend it?
As for "not Christian" rather than "atheist"...... Just because someone fails to adhere to the rules of being in group X, that does not mean the person is not in group X. If being "Christian" entails you never faltering or failing to attain the Biblical ideals of Christianity, then I wonder who on this planet IS christian. Because no one is perfect, and everyone falters and fails at some point. Perhaps that oft cited line of "He without sin cast the first stone" is relevant here.
I would suggest therefore if you use Vizio's method of ascertaining Christianity then it is so strident a criteria that NO ONE on the planet is Christian at all.
But shunning and disowning to me is morally reprehensible. When one of your group falters the correct response should not be to disown and shun them and pretend they were never really part of your group. It should be to pick them up where they have fallen, make MORE of a point of saying they are part of your group, and then help them stumble on wards on the path through life with you. After all isn't there another oft quoted Christianity line relating to "How you treat the least of my children is how you treat me".
If you feel at all keen to judge what does or does not match Christian ideals.... then by all means read the previous paragraph and tell me which seems more in line with "Christian Love" to you. What I describe I would do, or what I describe seeing them do. Perhaps the result of that introspection will surprise you.
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Originally Posted by Skyl3r
Yeah, much more than enough
That said, Lets stick with mature and relevant adult responses shall we?
Exactly. Which would entail and include not putting words in peoples mouths I hope. I would never do it to you. I ask nothing more than to have the same courtesy afforded to me.
The only thing I am claiming to be an "expert" on here is my observations, in that all I have offered is my observations. I am telling you what I have observed. Who else, but me, is an expect on what I have observed? You?
And I am telling you that what I have observed, very often, is Christians disowning Christians often as "not real christians" or as we saw on this very thread "atheists". Or disowning people who leave Christianity for atheism as "never having been really christian in the first place". And so on.
And the figure 33000 is not just plucked out of thin air. It comes from the World Christian Encyclopedia. So if you have a problem with an encyclopedia sourced citation, take it up with the Encyclopedia. Not with me.
Except you are lying now as you will NOWHERE find me telling you how you can, or can not, define your religion. Is what I am saying so difficult for you to rebut that you have to attack me for saying things I never actually said? How "Christian" of you I guess.
Answer that yourself by asking why YOU care to. Since I do not do it, why would I care to? You are asking me why I would care to do something that I JUST told you I do not actually do? Are you even trying to make sense now???
Why would people in general care to? I guess they do not want their particular group to look bad, so disowning those that make it look bad.... in their mind at least..... leaves their group looking clean.
Nope. I am not. Never have. Likely never will.
Funny when you say you "know" something about me, you are actually entirely wrong. Seems you "know" nothing of the sort. The posts you are (pretending) to read and reply to here are me saying nothing about what they adhere to. What I AM actually talking about is how many theists rush to disown other theists when they in some way FAIL to adhere to it.
And my understanding of Christianity is quite the opposite of that. My understanding of it is that when someone fails or strays or falters you pick them up and help them back on track. Christianity for me, were I Christian, would not be pointing at a failure and saying "He is atheist really!!!! Nothing to do with us!!!!!" but in fact owning it. Instead.... pointing at a failure and saying "Yes, he is one of us, we are not ashamed of him, and we will walk with him not just despite his failures, but BECAUSE of them".
THAT is Christianity to me. Not this Shunning, disowning, hand washing brand of it I see too readily too often. Pitchforks and torches do not make a religion for me. YMMV I guess.
Not what I suggested at all and in fact I worded what I wrote VERY carefully in actual prediction of you misrepresenting me in EXACTLY this way. Amazing when a source of dishonest is SO consistent that you know what they will do and say before they do.
What I said was that if YOU are keen to judge people on their Christianityness then YOU might find I am more christian than many people who claim to be christian.
So no, I was at NO point saying I am more Christian. I was commenting on YOUR judgement of Christianity in others and where YOU might judge me to be where YOU to try to with any honesty.
"Seem" being a strong word in this case.
What I DO think is that there is nothing morally or ethically useful in Christianity that actually requires one to be theist in order to subscribe to it. If you strip away the unsubstantiated nonsense and woo from Christianity and leave only the real world moral and ethical teachings from it...... then I doubt you will find much in what remains that has lost any quality for the purge.
Take, as I said above, the quality of not shunning and disowning people who falter on the path. But to own it, say "No this is one of us, just one of us who is struggling", and then giving your time and energy to help them back on what you believe to be the right path.
THAT is one of the "fruits" I think Christianity tries to teach and guess what.... it is ENTIRELY compatible with atheist and humanist ideals. Go figure. And there are multiple examples of that. There is a reason that, despite our massive theological differences, the general ideals of atheists and Christians are essentially mostly the same.
Quite the opposite it seems. But you projecting your failures on to me, does not magically make me take them on.
I'm sorry....I'm done here. I honestly didn't read all of this post...I don't believe that it's going to do any good. I find it ironic that you whine and moan and complain when a Christian says "That guy isn't one of us"...but by virtue of that, you're claiming to know better than us who is and is not a Christian....while you have demonstrated you don't have knowledge of our religion. That's arrogance.
Firstly, if you wish to keep up on the conversation it was not Vizios claim I was referring to, it was GoCardinals.
What a joke. You literally quote Vizio, and ask him the exact question I quoted in my post. If you weren't talking to Vizio, why did you quote him?
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
As for "not Christian" rather than "atheist"...... Just because someone fails to adhere to the rules of being in group X, that does not mean the person is not in group X. If being "Christian" entails you never faltering or failing to attain the Biblical ideals of Christianity, then I wonder who on this planet IS christian. Because no one is perfect, and everyone falters and fails at some point. Perhaps that oft cited line of "He without sin cast the first stone" is relevant here.
No. You are putting words in my mouth just as you said you'd never do. I never claimed that he is or is not a Christian. I would agree with what Vizio said:
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It's crystal clear this guy is not lifting up the name of Jesus...but is instead lining his own pockets. There would be no reason to believe this guy is a Christian based on this.
IE, the actions I see from him, such as using the Bible as a tool to make money and running an illegal casino in your garage do not reflect Christianity, so it is reasonable and rational to question that claim.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
But shunning and disowning to me is morally reprehensible. When one of your group falters the correct response should not be to disown and shun them and pretend they were never really part of your group. It should be to pick them up where they have fallen, make MORE of a point of saying they are part of your group, and then help them stumble on wards on the path through life with you.
I do not find it reprehensible at all. If I were Christian, I'd be all about getting the people who have no interest in Christianity out because the message they're spreading and the face they're giving Christianity is bad. They're not increasing the aggregate "Christian love". They're repelling people.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Exactly. Which would entail and include not putting words in peoples mouths I hope. I would never do it to you. I ask nothing more than to have the same courtesy afforded to me.
As you've demonstrated clearly.
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