The Concept of Grace. So Confusing (bible, quote, punishment, God)
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So I was thinking about grace recently...not sure why. (I'm not religious, BTW. I always feel the need to give that heads-up around here as people assume different things and then later feel duped or "ah-ha!"d or whatever. Don't want that, so...there's disclosure for you.)
Anyway. Am I right about this? Grace is something (in the theory) that God grants to people for His own reasons. You can't technically work to get it, or do something special to get it. God just grants it.
If that's so then isn't it kind of cruel that some people aren't given grace? In that case they never get a chance and it's absolutely not their fault.
And if that is the case then what good is proselytizing? Doesn't that assume we can go above God's head and "make" someone receive grace...which wouldn't make sense?
Can you "do something" to achieve grace or not? If not, then why would God automatically disqualify a certain percentage of people in that way? If you believe in this, and you feel you've received it, and you know others just won't and they're doomed through no fault of their own, how do you reconcile that with a good God?
So I was thinking about grace recently...not sure why. (I'm not religious, BTW. I always feel the need to give that heads-up around here as people assume different things and then later feel duped or "ah-ha!"d or whatever. Don't want that, so...there's disclosure for you.)
Anyway. Am I right about this? Grace is something (in the theory) that God grants to people for His own reasons. You can't technically work to get it, or do something special to get it. God just grants it.
If that's so then isn't it kind of cruel that some people aren't given grace? In that case they never get a chance and it's absolutely not their fault.
And if that is the case then what good is proselytizing? Doesn't that assume we can go above God's head and "make" someone receive grace...which wouldn't make sense?
Can you "do something" to achieve grace or not? If not, then why would God automatically disqualify a certain percentage of people in that way? If you believe in this, and you feel you've received it, and you know others just won't and they're doomed through no fault of their own, how do you reconcile that with a good God?
Look at Romans 9. Paul walks through the objections. Is he unfair by only choosing some? No--he's God and he can do what he wants with his creation.
It's ENTIRELY up to God what he wants to do with us, and as it says in Galatians -- it's not by good works or obedience to the Law that we get saved--it's all God.
Look at Romans 9. Paul walks through the objections. Is he unfair by only choosing some? No--he's God and he can do what he wants with his creation.
It's ENTIRELY up to God what he wants to do with us, and as it says in Galatians -- it's not by good works or obedience to the Law that we get saved--it's all God.
Okay. I mean it's not an objection per se...but yeah...it's odd that people would work toward anything at all if it all comes down to grace...and I am wondering people's opinions on why God would deliberately just, I guess, damn a percentage of people this way? That seems really off to me. Just to me, mind you. It doesn't have to, to everybody...but I do find this really odd.
That doesn't mean that I don't believe that if there is a God, He can do what He wants. I think that would be a given, actually, and is not an "objection" I have in and of itself. I mean...when I'm bigger than somebody else, technically I can do what I want, too. That's just logic.
Okay. I mean it's not an objection per se...but yeah...it's odd that people would work toward anything at all if it all comes down to grace...and I am wondering people's opinions on why God would deliberately just, I guess, damn a percentage of people this way? That seems really off to me. Just to me, mind you. It doesn't have to, to everybody...but I do find this really odd.
Again....read Romans 9. Paul kind of answers that. He points out that the clay has no right to demand of the potter what he chooses to do with it. We also have no right to make demands of God. He made us...we rebelled he can do what he wants with us. If he damned every single one of us, he has that right -- because we rebelled against him.
Look at Romans 9. Paul walks through the objections. Is he unfair by only choosing some? No--he's God and he can do what he wants with his creation.
It's ENTIRELY up to God what he wants to do with us, and as it says in Galatians -- it's not by good works or obedience to the Law that we get saved--it's all God.
So why bother with all the pomp & circumstance if this god has zero accountability and can toss aside anyone on just a wild hair notion?
If there was a God exactly as described in the Bible, then His deciding whether or not to bestow grace would be a given and not questionable. He's God. He can give grace or not give grace.
BUT the idea of then punishing people for something He withheld that would get the people punished is...weird.
Again....read Romans 9. Paul kind of answers that. He points out that the clay has no right to demand of the potter what he chooses to do with it. We also have no right to make demands of God. He made us...we rebelled he can do what he wants with us. If he damned every single one of us, he has that right -- because we rebelled against him.
You're not listening, Viz...as I said, that much, I get: that God if it is really God can make any decisions He wants, that's a given.
I'm not asking "whether" God can do what He wants. If such a God exists it can obviously do what it wants, full stop.
However, then reconciling "what He wants" with "meh, He just wants to damn people" as you describe above, with all good IS a sticking point, Romans or no Romans.
I am not saying a God SHOULDN'T do what it wants. I'm just questioning how that could or "should" then tie into punishment for something the person literally had zero control over; and then, putting that together with the "potter" being nothing but good.
You're not listening, Viz...as I said, that much, I get: that God if it is really God can make any decisions He wants, that's a given.
I'm not asking "whether" God can do what He wants. If such a God exists it can obviously do what it wants, full stop.
However, then reconciling "what He wants" with "meh, He just wants to damn people" as you describe above, with all good IS a sticking point, Romans or no Romans.
I am not saying a God SHOULDN'T do what it wants. I'm just questioning how that could or "should" then tie into punishment for something the person literally had zero control over; and then, putting that together with the "potter" being nothing but good.
You're starting with the premise that man is good, or that we are innocent. That's not correct. Start with the premise that we have offended God -- that we are rebelling and are at war with him--because that's the reality of it.
Why would you expect a just and holy God to simply overlook such offenses with no repercussions whatsoever?
Or you problem is with the fact that he chooses, but not others? Is that it?
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