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You are saying that having a dream where you have some words from a song with spiritual words and then hear it on the radio is a divine experience, and that other regular people in the course of their normal lives having dream premonitions (eg. hearing a song in a dream and then hearing it on the radio) is just a copycat experience. Imagine if those people heard a song in the day with spiritual meaning, or if your dream didn't have a song with the spiritual meaning but nonetheless occurred. De facto the two kinds of experiences would be indistinguishable.
Therefore it looks in question to me how much of this is a divine intercession miracle or is a paranormal phenomenon that many people experience. In fact, most people in one survey said that they had things like premonitions, feelings things were to soon occur, etc.
This is why discernment is needed.
You ask:
I am skeptical that it comes down to that.
Some people called Deists believe in God but not miracles.
Other people, especially traditional Calvinists, believe in God and accept Christianity, but they find supernatural divine "gift" abilities like predictive prophecy to be extremely rare.
Others, Charismatics, find those gifts to be very frequent and they claim miracle healings occur commonly during their prayer meetings. Sometimes they turn out to be frauds using parlour tricks to make people think there are divine healings.
For the Catholic Church, miracles do happen, but discernment is very important to tell a miracle from some other more mundane experience. If you have a "vision" or some other experience, it's essential that you do discernment instead of automatically accepting it. You have to consider the possibilities: delusion, daydreaming, hallucination, coincidence, paranormal phenomena that many people experience, etc.
This is why it comes down to more than just whether you believe in God.
I didn't say that about dreams. He is perfectly capable of reaching even non-believers in dreams. I know. He gave me one when I was 11; spoke to me in it, even, and showed me a man I had never met.....YET. It came to pass in a remarkable way complete with being caught up in the Spirit, when I was 30. Sometimes dreams are the only way He can get through to unbelievers, because the carnal mind of man is more "out of the way", therefore less resistant, during sleep than at any other time.
However, not all dreams come from G-d, obviously. So I guess in that sense you could call them a counterfeit, but only in the sense they don't originate with Him and are part of our fallen nature, not in the sense of a deliberate distortion, although demonic spirits are quite capable of giving a person dreams, also.
Catholic "miracles" seem to revolve around increasing faith in their religion, not in increasing faith in G-d and His Word. For instance; what is faith building according to the Word, about a lifeless statue (graven image) "crying" blood? Who or what does that exalt?
Our faith is supposed to built on the foundation of the Word, as far as what we can hope for, hope to see fulfilled out the realm of Spirit and into the realm of the material. Faith IS, the evidence of things NOT seen, and it requires prayer. The Word, mixed with faith, is what will produce results, and is how we are to structure our prayers.
This is how heaven and earth come into agreement or covenant. If you want to appropriate something here on earth, you are appropriating it out of a covenant that originates in heaven/realm of the Spirit of G-d. Praying in AGREEMENT with the Word, and mixing that Word with faith, in other words, is what will produce results, NOT because we are anything special, but because HIS WORD CANNOT LIE.
When people pray for say, healing, one reason they don't always get it is because their faith is based on THEIR ability/presumed right standing with G-d, ect., INSTEAD of being based on His Word. I have ZERO faith in anything to do with me, but unlimited faith in Him being able to do ANYTHING according to His Word, both literal letter, and Spirit breathed personal word to me, for me, or for any other individual. This is why I have had miracle healings, and seen/participated in others receiving them as well.
Put another way, the evidence that you see in this realm, is what you had faith to believe Him for. Who in their right mind would pray and have faith for a statue to bleed, and for what reason? How would that in any way exalt Him and show His power to His people? Seriously??? Did G-d say ANYWHERE in His Word, believe Me, and pray for statues to bleed? Or are we to believe and pray for others to be healed/made whole, receive the gifts of the Spirit, receive Him, ect.?
Demons, btw, love to show off that they have power over inanimate objects, even if they have not yet acquired their target vessel in the midst of it all. They make them fly through the air frequently, pictures and clocks fly off walls, things turn on by themselves. In one deliverance, the oil filled heater kept roaring, distracting us by coming on. I turned off the control button, thinking I had sollved the problem, but it came on repeatedly in spite of being set in the "off" position. Finally, I had the presence of mind to go turn it off by unplugging it. It was then I discovered it wasn't even plugged into a power source to begin with!
An easy way to test the spirits is that a spirit will always exalt the one who sent it. So on the day of Pentecost, we see that according to the Word, they were praising and exalting the wondrous works of G-d. Peace
I didn't say that about dreams. He is perfectly capable of reaching even non-believers in dreams. I know. He gave me one when I was 11; spoke to me in it, even, and showed me a man I had never met.....YET. It came to pass in a remarkable way complete with being caught up in the Spirit, when I was 30. Sometimes dreams are the only way He can get through to unbelievers, because the carnal mind of man is more "out of the way", therefore less resistant, during sleep than at any other time.
However, not all dreams come from G-d, obviously. So I guess in that sense you could call them a counterfeit, but only in the sense they don't originate with Him and are part of our fallen nature, not in the sense of a deliberate distortion, although demonic spirits are quite capable of giving a person dreams, also.
Here is the problem I sense. You seem to be dividing the experiences this way:
1. Supernatural Divine miracle intercessions
2. "Fallen" nature "counterfeits"
3. Demonic dreams.
Here is the problem. You are not correctly or openly accounting for the paranormal experiences that very many people experience.
Dogs and animals have extreme abilities to perform navigation. They can cross the country to get back to their owners. They sometimes seem to have a sense of when their master is coming home, even if it's not at a regular time each day. The animals though do not have "counterfeit" supernatural experiences when they do this. The animals do not inherit biologically the guilt of Adam's sin. If the Fall had not occurred, would they still have this ability and other nondivine paranormal ones? It stands to Reason, YES they would.
Therefore, these kinds of premonition experiences and paranormal abilities cannot be so easily divided into the three categories you listed above, I think.
Quote:
Catholic "miracles" seem to revolve around increasing faith in their religion, not in increasing faith in G-d and His Word. For instance; what is faith building according to the Word, about a lifeless statue (graven image) "crying" blood? Who or what does that exalt?
The faith building is that the Lord can intercede in the physical world, and that the saints in heaven have sympathy for those on earth. So if ISIS persecutes and kills Christians, then Jesus' mother who is in heaven is sad about their genocide and the statues reflect this sadness.
The exaltation can be of the divine sympathy and mercy in which the saints share.
If you are suggesting that exaltation of the saints is heretical, this is incorrect. In Isaiah 28 it talks about the saints having a crown in the Lord.
Psalm 145 says:
Quote:
4 For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Now, do I actually believe that the statues are really crying blood? I am skeptical. But if we are going to automatically say that it doesn't ever happen or is always bad because it's involves physical images or Mary, then it looks like we are going down a slippery slope to say that many other things are fake too.
What happened with Post-Lutheran Protestantism is that they started to get very Skeptical about miracle claims. The Catholic saints and churches are said to get involved in miracles, including but not limited to the statues and to relics. And so Post Luther Protestantism tends to take a very skeptical view of lots of miracles like ones involving physical objects. But the truth is, this skepticism is not Biblical. In the Bible, the saints have numerous experiences with miraculous physical objects and relics.
Experiences with relics would fit into the 1st-2nd c. Christian context or sometimes in Catholic contexts, but they don't match traditional Post-Lutheran Protestantism, which is far more skeptical than the Catholics have been. But both Catholics and Protestants emphasize Discernment.
Quote:
Who in their right mind would pray and have faith for a statue to bleed, and for what reason? How would that in any way exalt Him and show His power to His people?
They could easily ask for God to show his love and sympathy in time of severe distress, and then the miracle occurs.
Personally, I am skeptical, but to just dismiss it automatically because it involves a statue is a slippery slope, I think.
Quote:
Seriously??? Did G-d say ANYWHERE in His Word, believe Me, and pray for statues to bleed? Or are we to believe and pray for others to be healed/made whole, receive the gifts of the Spirit, receive Him, ect.?
I highly doubt Catholics "pray for statues to bleed". What does happen is antiCatholic false polemics, just like there has been false polemics against Christians. FYI, I am not interested in having any anti-Catholic polemics on this thread.
This thread is only for focusing on the reliability of Tanakh prophecies and on Ezekiel 37's vision and the resurrection of the dead.
If you are going to claim that Catholic visions of Jesus or Mary, or Catholic saints' prophecies are by nature very doubtful but faithful Protestants' claims are not doubtful, you are going down a slippery slope. If you are saying that Catholicrelics doing miracles is by nature doubtful, you are going off topic because this thread is about visions and prophecies, not about statues and relics.
Here is the problem I sense. You seem to be dividing the experiences this way:
1. Supernatural Divine miracle intercessions
2. "Fallen" nature "counterfeits"
3. Demonic dreams.
Here is the problem. You are not correctly or openly accounting for the paranormal experiences that very many people experience.
Dogs and animals have extreme abilities to perform navigation. They can cross the country to get back to their owners. They sometimes seem to have a sense of when their master is coming home, even if it's not at a regular time each day. The animals though do not have "counterfeit" supernatural experiences when they do this. The animals do not inherit biologically the guilt of Adam's sin. If the Fall had not occurred, would they still have this ability and other nondivine paranormal ones? It stands to Reason, YES they would.
Therefore, these kinds of premonition experiences and paranormal abilities cannot be so easily divided into the three categories you listed above, I think.
The faith building is that the Lord can intercede in the physical world, and that the saints in heaven have sympathy for those on earth. So if ISIS persecutes and kills Christians, then Jesus' mother who is in heaven is sad about their genocide and the statues reflect this sadness.
The exaltation can be of the divine sympathy and mercy in which the saints share.
If you are suggesting that exaltation of the saints is heretical, this is incorrect. In Isaiah 28 it talks about the saints having a crown in the Lord.
Psalm 145 says:
Now, do I actually believe that the statues are really crying blood? I am skeptical. But if we are going to automatically say that it doesn't ever happen or is always bad because it's involves physical images or Mary, then it looks like we are going down a slippery slope to say that many other things are fake too.
What happened with Post-Lutheran Protestantism is that they started to get very Skeptical about miracle claims. The Catholic saints and churches are said to get involved in miracles, including but not limited to the statues and to relics. And so Post Luther Protestantism tends to take a very skeptical view of lots of miracles like ones involving physical objects. But the truth is, this skepticism is not Biblical. In the Bible, the saints have numerous experiences with miraculous physical objects and relics.
Experiences with relics would fit into the 1st-2nd c. Christian context or sometimes in Catholic contexts, but they don't match traditional Post-Lutheran Protestantism, which is far more skeptical than the Catholics have been. But both Catholics and Protestants emphasize Discernment.
They could easily ask for God to show his love and sympathy in time of severe distress, and then the miracle occurs.
Personally, I am skeptical, but to just dismiss it automatically because it involves a statue is a slippery slope, I think.
I highly doubt Catholics "pray for statues to bleed". What does happen is antiCatholic false polemics, just like there has been false polemics against Christians. FYI, I am not interested in having any anti-Catholic polemics on this thread.
This thread is only for focusing on the reliability of Tanakh prophecies and on Ezekiel 37's vision and the resurrection of the dead.
If you are going to claim that Catholic visions of Jesus or Mary, or Catholic saints' prophecies are by nature very doubtful but faithful Protestants' claims are not doubtful, you are going down a slippery slope. If you are saying that Catholicrelics doing miracles is by nature doubtful, you are going off topic because this thread is about visions and prophecies, not about statues and relics.
Now you've jumped to animals, another unrelated topic. Slow down, I can't keep up!
Ok...animals first. They have souls. We have souls. Soul to soul connections abound, therefore. My cat found it's way home after 5 years, having never been outside before in it's life. Do I think it was a miracle? No. Do I think it was spiritual in a G-d way? No. Do I think it was demonic? No. Do I think it was "paranormal", which is really just a made up word devised to describe what really has it's origin in one of two kingdoms or spiritual realms? No.
Soulish carnal beastly natures are the same in man and animals. Therefore, there's nothing "paranormal" about something that is performing according to it's G-d given nature and function, ie. the nature of a soul. The "paranormal" aspect only enters in, when that soul is depressed, oppressed, or possessed by a demonic entity, all conditions not a standard condition of animals, although entities have no problem coming and going in and out of them as well, but it's not their preference because they can't sin, therefore their usefulness and desirability are low on the totem pole.
A soul has a spiritual aspect to it. It sees into the realm of the spiritual, being the lesser glory that it is, but without it's Husband to guide it, what it sees is subject to it's own interpretation (or the interpretations of others as it so chooses, if we're talking about human souls) based on the limitations it has imposed on it by the fall.
And, even astral projection is possible as it possible for the soul to exit the body, BUT without a covering, the soul/woman is just like the women who were prey for the fallen angel Nephalim spirits who joined themselves to woman and produced giants. This is why the soul/WOMAN is to have a covering, because of the Nephalim, which it plainly tells you. And this is also conversely why it's possible for the Spirit of G-d WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR COVERING as the Holy Ghost, to catch us up out of the body as well, because it's NOT the counterfeit.
If you're a male, recognizing you must have a covering (because of your woman, your soul) seems to be a harder pill to swallow because you all are used to being (or least deluding yourselves into believing you are) the "masters of your own destiny". Being subjected to anything and anyone just doesn't come very naturally to you. Never the less, you too have a soul, a woman who needs a covering, and that covering is the Spirit of Christ. Because without that covering, fallen angels have just as much right to you as they do women who are natural physical women after the flesh. And so we see men on here arguing for messages from the Nephalim. Twice as sad.
The enemy of your soul is in your left eye as a soldier under the name of Adam.
Your flesh is the water and the desires of your flesh that sees what it wants in your right eye and it will reach out and take what it wants with it's right hand.
Inside your left eye is supposed to be a very powerful spirit that will give you strength to stand against your right eye and the desires of your flesh that you could overcome your desires.
Unfortunately, the spirit in your left eye is a fallen spirit who makes friends with the right eye and it's desires and so you are as Adam eating the fruit that Eve has offered you after she was tempted by the serpent's spirit which is always a spirit in your right eye along with Eve who hears what the body says.
The body whispers and whispers and Eve can hear that serpent.
No longer is Adam a powerful spirit which guides the entire creation, he is a fallen spirit and he is compromised as a fallen Adam.
Now there is a need for a new Adam because the Adam we were born into is a fallen spirit who is dying instead of being a powerful great spirit that gives you enough strength to stand against your selfishness, your lust, your greed, your anger.
Now we give into our anger because the spirit in the left eye is fallen, fallen, and he is the enemy of our souls just as the right eye is, just as the right eye sees desire, the left eye sees vanity.
You are in the middle like Jerusalem between the two kingdoms, there you are.
New comment from you I detected: right eye sees desire and left eye sees vanity? Care to explain? Peace
The right eye sees what you want and you lust but there is no shame to the right side, it doesn't care, it just wants what it wants and then it takes what it wants.
Meanwhile, the left eye is a guiding spirit that was supposed to keep the right side in check but it pets the right hand like the head of a serpent for a pet, and after the right hand has taken what it ought not to take, the left eye acts as if nothing has happened. He thinks that he is absolutely above God and this is why he fell into me in the first place. His vanity knows no end, he will willingly watch the flesh sin and act as if he had no part, and then he goes back to reading the bible thinking he is that great prophet no matter what his flesh does, he will just blame it on Satan and move on.
He was a literal person in my good opinion, a person who had lived his own life and when he died, he was saved but only one who stands in the lower court of 3 sections in heaven, and when a third of heaven fell, he fell into a human with the intent to teach and whisper to the person, the would be king as a male spirit in control of a house, a female. He falls into a person and begins to speak and I was sure it was the spirit of God speaking. The person just knows that a spirit is there and it is speaking but either way, it was he against I, that is, after I turned on him, and then came a replacement, and then another.
He thinks he had no part in sin when he says,'' The woman, she gave me....''
I would not have known what was happening had it not been for Samuel lol.
Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
Yeah, had to call up Samuel, and of Samuel I had one request that I would receive a bible scholar that I named, and then came he, lol.
Now you've jumped to animals, another unrelated topic. Slow down, I can't keep up!
Ok...animals first. They have souls. We have souls. Soul to soul connections abound, therefore. My cat found it's way home after 5 years, having never been outside before in it's life. Do I think it was a miracle? No. Do I think it was spiritual in a G-d way? No. Do I think it was demonic? No. Do I think it was "paranormal", which is really just a made up word devised to describe what really has it's origin in one of two kingdoms or spiritual realms? No.
The word paranormal means:
Quote:
Denoting events or phenomena such as telekinesis or clairvoyance that are beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding.
Animals seem to have abilities that are beyond the scope of our normal scientific understanding, thus paranormal, such as navigating for hundreds of miles to find their way back home or knowing exactly when their master is coming home at random times.
The abilities appear to be something that is not an extraordinary miracle supernatural divine intercession by God, nor is a "counterfeit" miracle of God. Thus, there appears to be another category, a paranormal one, beyond the three that you listed:
And so when you have a dream where you hear an inspiring song and later in the day you hear the song on the radio, it seems to me most likely that we are talking about a paranormal category 4 event, although many people would consider it chance. Now, God does work in nature, so God could have stimulated your radio coincidence, just like he could stimulate a cat's animal navigation.
The root question for this thread is what is the basis for the reliability of believing in Ezekiel 37 as certainly coming to pass. Ezekiel 37 is supposedly a vision, so if he really did have a divine supernatural vision from God, then it would be reliable.
And so different questions arise, like whether there are such things as real "visions" that are not just delusions or daydreaming mind wanderings or hallucinations. And one would also want to see whether the vision was meant literally, and was supernatural from God in particular.
(Scratching my head).....and if you are saying this is literally so.....WHY would you give yourself to the works of a necromancy spirit??? Peace
Good question.
I don't find people who knowingly follow a "dark side" religion to come across as very reasonable in their decisionmaking. It's like knowingly and voluntarily placing a bet on a horse you will know will lose a race.
Animals seem to have abilities that are beyond the scope of our normal scientific understanding, thus paranormal, such as navigating for hundreds of miles to find their way back home or knowing exactly when their master is coming home at random times.
The abilities appear to be something that is not an extraordinary miracle supernatural divine intercession by God, nor is a "counterfeit" miracle of God. Thus, there appears to be another category, a paranormal one, beyond the three that you listed:
And so when you have a dream where you hear an inspiring song and later in the day you hear the song on the radio, it seems to me most likely that we are talking about a paranormal category 4 event, although many people would consider it chance. Now, God does work in nature, so God could have stimulated your radio coincidence, just like he could stimulate a cat's animal navigation.
The root question for this thread is what is the basis for the reliability of believing in Ezekiel 37 as certainly coming to pass. Ezekiel 37 is supposedly a vision, so if he really did have a divine supernatural vision from God, then it would be reliable.
And so different questions arise, like whether there are such things as real "visions" that are not just delusions or daydreaming mind wanderings or hallucinations. And one would also want to see whether the vision was meant literally, and was supernatural from God in particular.
My point was; that there is nothing paranormal if you realize the difference between soul and spirit, soul and Spirit, and demonic spirits. Peace
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