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war is not a loving kind religious activity. was blowing up new york fair or kind? is shooting missiles at
israel after they gave up gaza fair or kind? i don't think so. do you know what they do to female soldiers they capture?
don't get that on CNN do you?
So are we regressing to the "an eye for an eye" mentality? And we consider ourselves civilized?
I'm a military veteran. During my service, I was trained on both interrogation techniques and likely torture methods that would be employed against Americans and how to resist them. That same training included a survey of subtle approaches we (the USA) use to successfully extract information from captives. None involved torture or mistreatment.
The morons who have mucked up Iraq and Afghanistan are not former military men. And they are certainly not moral individuals, as they have repeatedly proven. Their insistence on the use of torture is just another symptom of the deeply imbedded sickness in this current administration.
I think a number of posters on the thread would do well to read this.
War is not civilized. Last I checked, Army's nowadays are not lining up in a neat and orderly line and just start shooting at each other. That is how a civilized war used to be fought. We look at it now and say that is idiotic, just standing there waiting to be shot. While it is always good to take the high road, you can't blame people for trying to protect our troops, and the United States as a whole.
I do not think we are stooping to their level. If we were, we would be doing much more gruesome things than waterboarding.
War is not civilized. Last I checked, Army's nowadays are not lining up in a neat and orderly line and just start shooting at each other. That is how a civilized war used to be fought. We look at it now and say that is idiotic, just standing there waiting to be shot. While it is always good to take the high road, you can't blame people for trying to protect our troops, and the United States as a whole.
I do not think we are stooping to their level. If we were, we would be doing much more gruesome things than waterboarding.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left. - Bertrand Russell
I like that quote because it kind of makes you think about the brutality of war and how anything goes. It's a sad thing.. wars are.
The problem Mike, is not so much us stooping to their level. The problem seems to be that many view waterboarding as non-torture. The subjectivity of what torture is makes this issue quite unegalitarian.
When I was in the military, we were taught (very often) about the laws of armed conflict and the rules of engagement. We were told that we were not allowed to use torture under any circumstances. The premise that this veto sets is that waterboarding is not torture but rather a means of getting information divulged with a little 'harshness'. Now, I don't do psychology very well but I can't imagine how waterboarding is NOT torture. We, as the USA, have a precedent to set in regards to how humanely we treat our prisoners of war even if that war is one in which there are no armies on battlefields. Believe it or not, it's the very humane and ethical treatment of people that tends to win them over and not brutal torture.
I can tell you that when I was in Iraq I saw a great deal of Iraqi civilians being brought into our hospitals. The amazing thing was that many of them were terrorists who we had engaged in combat with. I ask... would it have been better to take them to our hospital, treat them, help them, mend their wounds and help recover them? Or would it have been more ethical and humane to leave them bleeding on the street because they were the enemy? That is the kind of precedent we try to set. Waterboarding seems to take all of that away.
juj, you're the one condoning waterboarding as "hurting just a little."
It is inhumane.
Under your definition, you should try it because you condone it.
I have no opinion on people wearing a burka. That's a religious choice. I made no statement about it.
You, juj, on the other hand, condone torture. Would you be willing to undergo the same "hurt a little" treatment?
Would it be torture then?
You're saying that it is appropriate for the US government to use torture tactics on others. How do you feel about other countries using torture tactics on US soldiers?
If it's appropriate for one side, then it's appropriate for the other side.
You can't condemn others for using the same techniques that your side uses.
juj: "It sounds like this honorable gentlemen never actually did interrogating and therefore doesn't fully know what works and what doesn't." And you do? Have you been in that position?
Where do you stop, electrodes on your genitals; forcible rape? What's the limit? Do you condone those methods being used on US soldiers?
War does not determine who is right, only who is left. - Bertrand Russell
I like that quote because it kind of makes you think about the brutality of war and how anything goes. It's a sad thing.. wars are.
The problem Mike, is not so much us stooping to their level. The problem seems to be that many view waterboarding as non-torture. The subjectivity of what torture is makes this issue quite unegalitarian.
When I was in the military, we were taught (very often) about the laws of armed conflict and the rules of engagement. We were told that we were not allowed to use torture under any circumstances. The premise that this veto sets is that waterboarding is not torture but rather a means of getting information divulged with a little 'harshness'. Now, I don't do psychology very well but I can't imagine how waterboarding is NOT torture. We, as the USA, have a precedent to set in regards to how humanely we treat our prisoners of war even if that war is one in which there are no armies on battlefields. Believe it or not, it's the very humane and ethical treatment of people that tends to win them over and not brutal torture.
I can tell you that when I was in Iraq I saw a great deal of Iraqi civilians being brought into our hospitals. The amazing thing was that many of them were terrorists who we had engaged in combat with. I ask... would it have been better to take them to our hospital, treat them, help them, mend their wounds and help recover them? Or would it have been more ethical and humane to leave them bleeding on the street because they were the enemy? That is the kind of precedent we try to set. Waterboarding seems to take all of that away.
I whole heartedly agree that the Iraqi civilians should be taken care of. It is essential for turning around Iraq.
But what I am referring to is someone that is caught ( an insurgent, terrorist etc. ) and they have vital information that could save troops lives or the lives of us over here. Then I think that we have to do everything we can to ensure that safety.
Do I think they should start off with waterboarding? Of course not. But if nothing else works, then it should be an option if it is effective.
I think there's one very important thing we need to consider and that is the fact that there are consequences for our nation when any individual suffers or loses their life because of our actions. Those people have family members and people who care about them. When we abuse people we create terrorists because they are so enraged by our behavior that a shopkeeper or a bus driver could be converted into a terrorist and be willing to give up his or her life to get back at us. The war we're in today created countless thousands of terrorists and has taken the lives of unknown numbers of completely innocent people. If you had a brother, son or other loved one who suffered inhumane treatment or was even killed by someone who invaded your country what would you do? Do you recall the widely publicized mistreatment of prisoners in American custody in Iraq? That treatment caused many people to despise us, some of whom had even supported us in the past. I also feel bad for our military who have had to endure extended stays in Iraq and the overwhelming majority of them are good people trying to do their best in a very difficult situation as GCSTroop talked about. I also agree with the comments made by skoro who's another veteran. They've been there and they know what they're talking about.
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