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In fact it is. In fact It can't be anything else. It is so broad and vague that it covers anything that 'uplifts the human spirit' (it's a term that pops into my head when i think of what it means to me').
It can be anything from religious faith to the most creative cuisine, and from ballet to religious or political rallies. What other than science and philosophy (in very broad terms) can this be? And Mystic often says, 'there is no supernatural'. What exists in nature (as distinct from human invented conventions) is the realm of science, even if it can never actually know about it. Religious beliefs of course come under the broad heading of 'philosophy'.
In fact it is. In fact It can't be anything else. It is so broad and vague that it covers anything that 'uplifts the human spirit' (it's a term that pops into my head when i think of what it means to me').
It can be anything from religious faith to the most creative cuisine, and from ballet to religious or political rallies. What other than science and philosophy (in very broad terms) can this be? And Mystic often says, 'there is no supernatural'. What exists in nature (as distinct from human invented conventions) is the realm of science, even if it can never actually know about it. Religious beliefs of course come under the broad heading of 'philosophy'.
You're on to something there, Trans. As you well know, this forum was originally titled Religion and Philosophy. I'd guess that discussions about Spirituality often touch on Philosophy.
In fact it is. In fact It can't be anything else. It is so broad and vague that it covers anything that 'uplifts the human spirit' (it's a term that pops into my head when i think of what it means to me').
It can be anything from religious faith to the most creative cuisine, and from ballet to religious or political rallies. What other than science and philosophy (in very broad terms) can this be? And Mystic often says, 'there is no supernatural'. What exists in nature (as distinct from human invented conventions) is the realm of science, even if it can never actually know about it. Religious beliefs of course come under the broad heading of 'philosophy'.
That's why what Gaylen is discussing is philosophy and science. Not religion and spirituality
last sentence in post above is backwards. There is always a philosophy in religion. A religion includes a specific philosophy. However the reverse is not the case. Philosophy does not include or contain religion
When you say "uplifts the human spirit" what do you mean by "human spirit" ? What is "the human spirit" to you?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-25-2018 at 07:18 AM..
You're on to something there, Trans. As you well know, this forum was originally titled Religion and Philosophy. I'd guess that discussions about Spirituality often touch on Philosophy.
There is always a philosophy within a person's religious or spiritual beliefs. But the reverse is not the case. There is not always spirituality or religion in a person's philosophy. Gaylen flat out says spiritual is not a term in philosophy.
Religion (and spirituality) contains a philosophy.
But Philosophy does not contain a religion (and spirituality).
Religion and spirituality address a broader swath (that contains and includes a philosophy). Philosophy addresses a narrower swath that does not contain or address religion or spirituality.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-25-2018 at 07:22 AM..
...Gaylen flat out says spiritual is not a term in philosophy.
Actually, what I said was that spirituality is not a well-defined term in philosophy. One could probably fill a library full of academic philosophy books and articles dealing with spirituality, not to mention plenty of popular books in the philosophy sections of book stores. Each author has to stipulate their own definitions of spirituality precisely because it is not a well-defined term in either poplar or academic literature. My main point is that there is certainly no consensus in popular or academic writing about restricting the term 'spiritual' to an assumption of metaphysical substance dualism.
Philosophy addresses a narrower swath that does not contain or address religion or spirituality.
On the contrary. There is an entire branch of philosophy devoted to the nature of religion, the meanings of religious concepts, mysticism, spirituality, etc.
BTW: Hegel (one of the German idealists) in the 1800's published a very famous book entitled The Phenomenology of Spirit. But you probably wouldn't like Hegel because, since he is an idealist, what he calls 'spirit' is probably more like what you would call mind or consciousness (and, in fact, some translators of the book translate the title as "The Phenomenology of Mind"). On the other hand, you might like Hegel because his notion of "Absolute Spirit" could be construed as what some people would call "God" (MPhD comes to mind here) But, of course, here we run into the problem that there is no consensus on a clear meaning of the word 'God' either.
Just for fun, I will paste this blurb:
"The Phenomenology of Spirit by Hegel, published in 1807, is based on a precious philosophical intuition: consciousness is not a completed institution, it is constructed, transformed to become other than itself. From this intuition, Hegel traces the epic adventure of the consciousness through its various stages, the evolution of consciousness, from sensitive consciousness to the absolute spirit."
I'd personally say that notions of "transformation" (or, at least, the idea that conscious beings are the types of beings for whom transformation is possible) are crucial for spirituality. Questions about what is doing the transforming, what constitutes the process of transformation, and the nature of the being that exists after the transformation are all wildly up for grabs, and this is a major reason for the difficulties in reaching any consensus on how to define spirituality.
And another blurb of interest:
In the debate about God that has been stirred up by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett, writers regularly refer to certain famous philosophers. ... There is one major modern philosopher who deals extensively with the issue of God and who should have been taken into account in these recent discussions, but hasn’t been. This is Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831).
It’s well known that various liberal theologians during the last century and a half have wanted to produce a conception of God that could satisfy people’s spiritual longings without conflicting with Darwinian evolution and other well-established scientific discoveries. What’s not well known is that Hegel already did this, with remarkable power and subtlety, in response to the great modern skeptics, Hume and Kant.
Actually, what I said was that spirituality is not a well-defined term in philosophy. One could probably fill a library full of academic philosophy books and articles dealing with spirituality, not to mention plenty of popular books in the philosophy sections of book stores. Each author has to stipulate their own definitions of spirituality precisely because it is not a well-defined term in either poplar or academic literature. My main point is that there is certainly no consensus in popular or academic writing about restricting the term 'spiritual' to an assumption of metaphysical substance dualism.
and because it is "not a well defined term in philosophy" or in "popular literature" or in "academic literature" people can and do make it mean whatever they want.
as we see on this forum.
that is my point exactly.
I think the term Trans uses (or was it Mordant?) is "fiddling with semantics."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-25-2018 at 09:43 AM..
and because it is "not a well defined term in philosophy" or in "popular literature" or in "academic literature" people can and do make it mean whatever they want.
as we see on this forum.
that is my point exactly.
I think the term Trans uses (or was it Mordant?) is "fiddling with semantics."
I think you are overstating the case. It's not "whatever they want" - but people's personal views of spirituality are contextually sensitive to their metaphysical assumptions. Thus it isn't a free-for-all, but it is a range of views that you seem to find annoying.
"Natural" means the 4 dimensional (3 spatial, one temporal) level we inhabit. The world that our 5 senses perceive, and that scientific instruments register.
"Supernatural" or "spiritual" refers to higher dimensional levels.
Higher levels might be more "mental," less "physical," not as dense.
In addition to higher levels, there might be alternate universes.
Higher dimensional levels would not necessarily all be "good."
Higher dimensional levels, and alternate universes, are assumed or hypothesized by physics. So there is nothing nutty about these ideas. It is more scientific than insisting there can be nothing beyond the 4D level.
The term you are looking for, Good4Nothing, is "metaphysics" or "beyond the physical" and many think it is about what Gardner called "ectoplasm" or whatever, but it is not JUST about that sort of thing, but about what we perceive in our consciousness which is based on the "physics." "Spiritual" in the sense of the forum name may be considered those "effects" or perceptions that have to do with our connection to the physical universe, and particularly to our fellow humans. For that reason the idea that such things as "school spirit" or "Esprit de corps" does not make the grade is only a matter of degree, not of kind and are viewed as lacking simply because the social constructs and the actual commitments involved are fairly artificial and temporary (tell that to an ex marine).
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