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...Basically, your "analogy" concerns differences in statements when conditions change: all of the contradictions are false statements insofar as they do not specify the conditions under which there is a difference in the state.
Gaylen was questioning whether there IS any such change of condition in the two statements under consideration, and whether, if there is, all such imprecisely worded statements have any value whatsoever.
1. Show that there IS such a difference in condition between the two statements.
2. Show why such imprecise wording can be trusted in ANY case, or indeed have ANY value whatsoever.
When we run across a contradiction (or what appears to be one) it makes us think. That has immense value. It asks us to think more deeply to try and figure out what is going on. It asks us to look beneath the surface and not rely on that which is superficial. That also has immense value. It asks us to identify our beliefs and clarify where they are in conflict and attempt to resolve and reconcile that which is out of kilter. That requires us to grow intellectually, mature emotionally, advance spiritually. It requires us to cultivate the ability to look honestly within. Those have immense value.
Gaylen can probably give us a whole lot more on the value there is in exploring, solving, approaching what seem to be contradictions, and how we grow and benefit from this process.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-07-2017 at 06:21 PM..
they are not contradictions. they may "seem like contradictions to someone who has not thought about these things very much"
thank you thank you thank you Gaylen. That is exactly what I was getting at. A seeming contradiction invites a person to look more in depth, to think more deeply.
Yup, again, a person has to identify what is the purpose of this book or article or passage; what is it talking about; how are the terms being used.
exactly.
yes yes and again yes. The effort is pointless if a person is looking in a cookbook to find out how to repair a car, and yes I agree your audience just rolls their eyes and laughs
No, I asked "In your view what is the purpose of a holy book" "What do you see is the purpose of a holy book? In your view, how is it used?"
Although the question you pose is also valuable "Why do you read a holy book"
Answering that is answering that for yourself and yourself alone.
Because a person can never know why another reads it, unless they actually ask the person and then actually listen to their answer.
I disagree with the last sentence. both sides use that as a cop out.
Adding more people lessons error and bias. And we need to be honest with who we are adding. i say people that have less of an interest in proving a statement of belief and more about finding the best truths we can are better than the two ends of the boob stick..
proving all religion wrong and/or my religion only types, usually have a gut wrenching experience (personal problem) that gets smudged all over common sense, logic, and reason. "gut wrenching experiences" tend to affect executive functioning. just a fact there, what we want to believe doesn't matter.
they are not contradictions. they may "seem like contradictions to someone who has not thought about these things very much"
thank you thank you thank you Gaylen. That is exactly what I was getting at. A seeming contradiction invites a person to look more in depth, to think more deeply.
No, that is exactly the opposite of your point. Gaylen was referring to YOUR hot/cold example, NOT the contradictory verses in the Bible. You do this a lot, seemingly deliberately misinterpret or misunderstand the posts of others to pretend they agree with you. You should be ashamed of such deception.
No, that is exactly the opposite of your point. Gaylen was referring to YOUR hot/cold example, NOT the contradictory verses in the Bible. You do this a lot, seemingly deliberately misinterpret or misunderstand the posts of others to pretend they agree with you. You should be ashamed of such deception.
I know exactly what he is referring to, and they are exactly the same. That's the whole point. Identical.
they are not contradictions. they may "seem like contradictions to someone who has not thought about these things very much"
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-07-2017 at 07:26 PM..
I see. So what we see in Exodus is God is taking responsibility for the relentless machinery of causation, which has nothing to do with personal fairness. God set the gears in motion; now he stands back and lets the chips fall where they may. I can accept that. In fact, if there is a God, then I'd say that this is probably what God has done.
If you are asking in the post just above about whether that is how I see God (removed, uncaring, uninvolved, relentless machinery, distant, nothing to do with personal fairness), then the answer is no i do not. Those are pretty much the opposite of my understanding of God which is: close, caring, involved in every detail of life, present in every situation, loving, compassionate. There is no place where God is not, my job is to keep that before me at all times, that awareness that closeness that relationship with the Divine.
You shared in another post some details from your own life regarding your relationship with the Divine, how you pray, it sounded quite warm and lovely, nurturing and responsive, comforting and caring. Very different from what you post above which sounds rather bleak and cold. It is rather jarring the disconnect between what you describe above and what you described in other posts about your own devotions. It leaves me wondering how they can be so very different.
i don't think in terms of punishment, i do think in terms of outcomes, consequences, and taking responsibility for my thought, speech, action, and feelings, and the very powerful impact this has on life and the world, my life and the big world both.. I don't think in terms of God does this to people or God does that to people. I do think in terms of learning how God runs the Universe, and the choices i have and free will. several times daily this prayer "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your might. These words which I command you today shall be inscribed upon the tablets of your heart."
For me a purpose of the holy book is drawing ever closer to God, how to improve my character traits, live a life of integrity. Not just studying and learning about God, and doing the right thing, but putting that into practice in my daily life.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-07-2017 at 11:58 PM..
If the biblical quotes are NOT contradictory, show what conditions are different in the different actions that have such different results.
for starters, one is in Ezekiel, one is in Exodus
the difference is blaming others or taking responsibility for what I can do to change the situation
being in a cycle of abuse, or breaking the cycle of violence
being a victim or asking for help
being cut off from God or reaching out to God for help
staying in dysfunctional patterns or seeking help and learning healthy ways to live
hopeless and defeated, or encouraging and supportive
here is an extended version of one example.
in the first a child is harmed by parents' dangerous actions. psychology recognizes the child is a victim, and had no choice, and is not to be blamed, all of which are correct.
in the second let's say the child is now in their 20s or their 30s. They want a different sort of life, one without the violence and crime and dysfunction and abuse and addiction. So they get into recovery, seek help, get counseling, and start trying to do the right thing. They learn the difference between being a victim, and taking responsibility, they learn to set boundaries, how to ask for help, what is healthy behavior.
when someone takes responsibility (healthy), instead of staying in victim mode (unhealthy), they are breaking the cycle of "punishment for the sins of the fathers." They are now able to make healthy choices and the outcome of that is "reward for the good" = good choices are rewarded with better quality of life.
those are a few examples to illustrate the principle. other people will have other examples. God doesn't change, but depending on different situations we are in, at different times in our life, we may respond differently, and see very different outcomes. It is about how we use our free will. And it is always always always about how we are in relationship with the Creator. God is back of it all. God is within every situation, and guards us in the shadow of His wings.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-08-2017 at 12:34 AM..
If the biblical quotes are NOT contradictory, show what conditions are different in the different actions that have such different results.
A central purpose of the holy book (and life) is to focus on the relationship a person has with the Creator. Do we see God as the "Big Meanie in the Sky" or a loving parent? We have a choice in how we relate to God.
We can view every thing through that: every contradiction, every situation in our life, every event in the holy book, every interaction we have in our day.
EXACTLY.
A seeming contradiction invites a person to look more in depth, to think more deeply.
I'm open to arguments either way on whether the Exodus/Ezekiel quotes are literal contradictions. When something seems to be a contradiction, the burden of proof is on someone who claims that there is no contradiction to show how it is possible for the statements to be logically consistent. So far, you have not shown me any convincing reason to think that they are not contradictory. As it stands, these passages seem to reinforce the view that different people wrote these words in the context of their own beliefs, biases, cultural circumstances, etc., and thus it is not surprising that they have different views on whether God does or does not punish future generations for the sins of their ancestors.
I'm sure everyone agrees that, as a matter of plain old physical causation, there is no doubt that future generations are hurt or rewarded based on the faults or accomplishments of the previous generations. But the Exodus passage clearly shows God proclaiming himself to be a jealous God, and in various other passages he reminds people that he is a vengeful God. When a Being who clearly admits to being jealous and vengeful says that he will punish future generations for the sins of the past generations, you need to do some rhetorical gymnastics to spin that in such a way that the suffering of the children is not in some sense divinely purposeful, rather than merely the mechanical grinding of cause and effect. Earlier I mentioned the Great Flood because it, too, provides some context. If that story is literally true (which I'm fairly certain it is not), then God has clearly demonstrated his vengeful nature and his willingness to purposefully inflict great suffering on innocent human beings when he gets pissed off.
Obviously a bunch of mechanical cause/effect happens. The question is whether or not God purposefully imposes suffering on people because of the sins of their previous generations. Exodus clearly indicates "yes" and "Ezekiel" clearly indicates "no".
I think the "deeper message" we should get from reading the Bible carefully and paying attention to context, etc., is that it is not written by an all-knowing, loving God. It is written by people in different times and places who understand/misunderstand God to varying degrees, and who are sometimes wise, sometimes foolish, sometimes consistent, sometimes not - cuz that's just how people are.
"I think the "deeper message" we should get from reading the Bible carefully and paying attention to context, etc., is that it is not written by an all-knowing, loving God. It is written by people in different times and places who understand/misunderstand God to varying degrees, and who are sometimes wise, sometimes foolish, sometimes consistent, sometimes not - cuz that's just how people are.?"
Bears repeating. Taking a book as authority is just foolishness. Jesus promised something better.
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