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I'm starting this thread out of a little desperation to my fellow bloggers on the Ex-Mormon Forums which crashed recently and it may be a few weeks till it's up and running. Like that forum, this is a discussion about leaving, preparing to leave, or having left the LDS church and it's varying tangents. I'm not interested in discussing why the LDS church is true, but what others have experienced or learned that led them away from the church. If you're devout LDS and want to argue the points of your religion or preach to the choir then I would happily direct you to one of the hundreds of apologist or revisionist sites out there. This isn't one of those.
Prior to our unfortunate crash we were really having a fascinating bunch of discussions on several topics.
1. Does religion add to or create sexual dysfunction or hangups. Why, how, etc. are good things to add to your opinions. Humor, sexual language, and bawdy jokes are welcome and encouraged. This isn't for the sheltered LDS or others who think only the missionary position and sex for procreation are the only things acceptable by Jesus. This is for human beings who see sex as a wonderful expression and creative fun thing to do, to joke about, and to discuss openly.
2. From the frying pan into the fire: When you left the LDS church did you go to another religion or church, why, what, how, etc. or did you decide that church in general isn't your cup of tea? Does agnosticism or athiesm appeal to you after leaving the LDS church or do you find spirituality to be something that includes a lot of different ideas? What constitutes spirituality to you?
3. How do you reconcile your non-LDS involvement or membership with your LDS family? What have been some of the consequences for you to leave? Has it been hard to leave and what has been the course of action by the LDS leaders if you tried to remove your name from the records? If you're a woman, have you been successful in getting the LDS church to allow you a temple divorce?
Again, this isn't for arguing the good and positive points of the LDS culture or doctrine. This is for those who need a place to express their feelings in regards to NOT being LDS. There's lots of sites dedicated to the factual information like MormonCurtain www.mormoncurtain.com . I've read lots of that info and invite others to look that up if they enjoy or prefer documented evidence or historical information. It's a thourogh site for all that.
I look forward to your responses. I'll be inviting some of my former postors as well. We'll try to keep you abreast of inside jokes if you're interested.
Warning:I'm silly, bawdy, irreverent, and sometimes rude. Sometimes I am thoughtful, insightful, and intelligent. It's a mixed bag and you may never know what you're getting but if you don't like it feel free to go elsewhere. Unlike Utah, it's a free country.
I'm starting this thread out of a little desperation to my fellow bloggers on the Ex-Mormon Forums which crashed recently and it may be a few weeks till it's up and running. Like that forum, this is a discussion about leaving, preparing to leave, or having left the LDS church and it's varying tangents. I'm not interested in discussing why the LDS church is true, but what others have experienced or learned that led them away from the church. If you're devout LDS and want to argue the points of your religion or preach to the choir then I would happily direct you to one of the hundreds of apologist or revisionist sites out there. This isn't one of those.
Prior to our unfortunate crash we were really having a fascinating bunch of discussions on several topics.
1. Does religion add to or create sexual dysfunction or hangups. Why, how, etc. are good things to add to your opinions. Humor, sexual language, and bawdy jokes are welcome and encouraged. This isn't for the sheltered LDS or others who think only the missionary position and sex for procreation are the only things acceptable by Jesus. This is for human beings who see sex as a wonderful expression and creative fun thing to do, to joke about, and to discuss openly.
2. From the frying pan into the fire: When you left the LDS church did you go to another religion or church, why, what, how, etc. or did you decide that church in general isn't your cup of tea? Does agnosticism or athiesm appeal to you after leaving the LDS church or do you find spirituality to be something that includes a lot of different ideas? What constitutes spirituality to you?
3. How do you reconcile your non-LDS involvement or membership with your LDS family? What have been some of the consequences for you to leave? Has it been hard to leave and what has been the course of action by the LDS leaders if you tried to remove your name from the records? If you're a woman, have you been successful in getting the LDS church to allow you a temple divorce?
Again, this isn't for arguing the good and positive points of the LDS culture or doctrine. This is for those who need a place to express their feelings in regards to NOT being LDS. There's lots of sites dedicated to the factual information like MormonCurtain www.mormoncurtain.com . I've read lots of that info and invite others to look that up if they enjoy or prefer documented evidence or historical information. It's a thourogh site for all that.
I look forward to your responses. I'll be inviting some of my former postors as well. We'll try to keep you abreast of inside jokes if you're interested.
Warning:I'm silly, bawdy, irreverent, and sometimes rude. Sometimes I am thoughtful, insightful, and intelligent. It's a mixed bag and you may never know what you're getting but if you don't like it feel free to go elsewhere. Unlike Utah, it's a free country.
if you're going to close the door to argument, you should at least quit using sarcastic, insulting exaggerations of the faith that will give lurkers the wrong idea, since no one is allowed (in your free country) to respond to the tad-biased remarks you are making.
I could contribute, but with respect to the members of this forum who are devout mormons I don't think belittling their beliefs or religion to be a good idea. It's one thing to not believe and another to bash it. Ya know?
There seems to be several threads devoted to the LDS and their beliefs. I would never consider going onto their thread and decrying their beliefs. If I wanted an argument I could go to one of the hundreds of LDS sites and lurk or become a troll there. I just started this thread for the EX mormons who would like a place for their myriad of thoughts and feelings to land.
It may surprise the devout LDS but there's lots of former Mormons out there who have valid and reasonable thoughts, who are trying to process the complexities of leaving the church, who appreciate open discussion without having to close one's mind in the ways they percieved were imposed while in the LDS church. I am one of those. I left because of a closed tight dark little box of ideas that a mere woman was not allowed to even peek outside without getting socially slapped down. This happens to many of the intellectuals, the creative, folks who read, and others in the LDS church. My questions are viable questions that open discussion of the things I stated. For doctrinal issues one has a myriad of choices to go to.
The EX-Mormon title of this thread is a pretty defined starter. I could call it "Emancipated Mormons", or "Disillusioned Mormons" or "Frustrated and Bitter Mormons", but Ex seemed shorter and more inclusive. Devout Mormons are good and nice people and have their own blogs, their own threads, and lots of things to do other than read EX mormon stuff. This is for those who think outside that box.
There seems to be several threads devoted to the LDS and their beliefs. I would never consider going onto their thread and decrying their beliefs. If I wanted an argument I could go to one of the hundreds of LDS sites and lurk or become a troll there. I just started this thread for the EX mormons who would like a place for their myriad of thoughts and feelings to land.
It may surprise the devout LDS but there's lots of former Mormons out there who have valid and reasonable thoughts, who are trying to process the complexities of leaving the church, who appreciate open discussion without having to close one's mind in the ways they percieved were imposed while in the LDS church. I am one of those. I left because of a closed tight dark little box of ideas that a mere woman was not allowed to even peek outside without getting socially slapped down. This happens to many of the intellectuals, the creative, folks who read, and others in the LDS church. My questions are viable questions that open discussion of the things I stated. For doctrinal issues one has a myriad of choices to go to.
The EX-Mormon title of this thread is a pretty defined starter. I could call it "Emancipated Mormons", or "Disillusioned Mormons" or "Frustrated and Bitter Mormons", but Ex seemed shorter and more inclusive. Devout Mormons are good and nice people and have their own blogs, their own threads, and lots of things to do other than read EX mormon stuff. This is for those who think outside that box.
no problem there. but if that were truly the case, you wouldn't feel the need to start throwing witty little comments about mormons and missionary position sex, or pleasurable versus procreative reasons for sexual intercourse, or the supposed free or tyrrant state of, err... well, the state of utah, especially when what you claim goes directly against what the church teaches. seems a little pointless to me. that's like complaining that you left the catholic church because they are all buddhist.
i would suggest using a bit of tact, and actually doing what you just claimed that you are trying to do, that is to discuss rationally and reasonably your and others' reasons for leaving the church.
it does not surprise us that there are nonmormons or ex-mormons that are thoughtful, intelligent, and capable of tying their own shoes. i for one, know quite a few of them that i respect a lot, and would never make sarcastic comments about their new faiths, even if i happen to disagree.
just seems a little illogical, unreasonable, and not very well premeditated.
Ok Aaron, WHY I LEFT--- You asked for it, you get it, the whole ball of wax in a series of posts that will make what I previously suggested seem sweet and innocent and tame. For those interested, I started this thread for EX-that's former LDS who want to discuss being LDS and what they've discovered since leaving. If you would like to dispute my experiences then I have a closet full of size 6 shoes that I invite you to walk in for a mere mile. Here goes....
On Baptisms for the dead and baptizing or sealing marriages of people who had no say in the matter:
Whoopie!!! I think I see a Terry Scheivo situation coming on, and in an election year no less, just like last time. You could totally go to the media with this and it could be Mitt's Undoing if the church presses for control of the dead. THis could be big! Just what we need to distract the voting public from REAL issues in the election like economy, war, health care. Not to minimize your experience, but it's interesting what the media and voting public pick up on as a platform for their support or lack thereof. Next to Gay Marriage, I think being forced to be married or unmarried or whatever to the dead will be the next thing to threaten the sanctity of the family in America.
Please forgive me if I'm irreverent or insensitive. It's not your situation that I make light of, but the whole church's mentality that they think they have a right to make decisions for dead folks. I'm pretty sure the founding fathers were just as happy in their Protestant, Catholic, or whatever heaven as anyone else but then along come the Mormons and baptize them posthumously and BING!! suddenly they're whisked away from a perfectly good Telestial Kingdom party and tossed into a boring milktoasty tedious Mormon Celestial kindgdom and forced to listen to old GA's rant on and on about whatever old GA"s rant on about. I'd be for committing a heavenly murder, just so I could get tossed out.
On requiring tithing from even the poorest among them:
One of my favorites was from a lady who was known as "The Cat Lady" because she had one brazzillion cats, and she also ate cat food, preferably Friskies chicken and beef flavor (I was her visiting teacher and I actually saw her open a can and eat it out of the can like some skinny girls eat tuna.)
She lived on Social Security and her kids didn't visit any more because she was crazy in the head from all the cat piddle amonia that had fried her brains out, and because the house stunk and made just about everyone wretch when they came within a mile of it.
She used to bear her testimony each month and for a half hr or so we'd hear the latest on her numerous cats and how one threw up in the shape of Joseph Smith's head, so she knew the church was true. She was especially proud when tithing settlement came around and made sure the ward saw her go up and hand the bishop a cookie tin full of coins and wrinkled sweaty dollar bills that she'd squirreled away all year for her tithing.
I don't fault him for taking it because in her mind, it was her contributions to the "BLESSINGS" that the church had given her, but in my fondest hopes, I pray that the bishop and his conselors would have seen fit to fill her cabinets with something a bit better than Friskies beef and chicken flavored cat food. That stuff is made from the lips and arses of chicken (chicken lips are nasty) and beef and not fit for stray cats, let alone batty old ladies who reek of cat pee and tom cat spray.
I don't begrudge tithing for those that feel some sense of fullfillment from it. I do begrudge that one of the wealthiest churchs on earth can still only pay their seminary teachers $18,000 a year, or the janitors $9.00 per hr. and other workers such low wages. It's downright criminal.
And for gosh sakes, why can't they at least make the churches a little prettier for all that money. Brown, brown, and more brown. It sucks the soul out of me to step inside one of those industrial generic Walmart of churches with the carpet on the wall and plywood stained dark brown and industrial carpet glued to the concrete, and ugly chapels with no soul, and sterile podiums with nothing to look at while the Dry Counsel are droning on and on. At least put some of those little video screens in the back of the pews with a dvd player and headphones so the visitors can watch something interesting while they sit on their butts for three freaking hours.
For all that money you'ld think they could at least get Blue Man Group, or Carrottop to perform once in a while. That would make church worth going to.
On imposing doctrine that only a man can be the head of a family and that through a man, righteous or not a woman can therefore have her family sealed in the LDS temple to "THEM" and thereby claim her rights in heaven:
Oh, that isn't the half of it... THe church, or at least some in it have pressured my sweet mother to concede to have our violent and cruel neglectful sperm donor father sealed to her and us to them in order for HER to have the right to be in the highest degree of heaven. The gall of this nearly keeps me awake at night. I'd sooner see a victim of Auchwitz marry the commandant than force my mother to do this. Damn this vile priesthood delusion. Boy howdy, this gets me on a bender. If I didn't have glasses my eyes would bulge with rage to the point of popping out right onto my keyboard. I need to hurt something.
On The heartbreaking suicide of a sweet nephew who for whatever reason chose to leave his LDS mission early:
I don't have any anger at my nephew. I see him totally as a victim of a million little voices of judgement and failure that came from every side, including inadvertantly, the family that loved him. It's part of being born a boy in the LDS church. It's part of being born into a family that looks at a young man's mission as the most important step into manhood. It's part of being born into a church that devalues and subtly ridicules every young man who for whatever reason, doesn't complete or go on a mission. It's the billboard outside the church that touts, "Return with Honor" and the foyers that are filled with all the "Success stories" of missionaries out and those who returned. It's the IN YOUR FACE of the missionary homecoming and the "You are a loser" of whispered rumors. It's the daunting reality of facing the family at family reunions where EVERY other young man and many females went on and completed missions. It's the grandma, sweet and virtuous and supportive and incredibly devout that sends money from her meager retirement funds to every missionary in the family, and who went on two missions, who in some ways he will NEVER LIVE UP TO. It's all of that bearing down on his little sweet and frightened soul, screaming at him that he's a nothing. That he has brought shame on the family, that he'll never be worthy of a woman or finish anything, including college now that he's come home.
My anger isn't at him. It will never be at him since I see him as having an almost surreal sense of courage to actually take action, even if it resulted in his death. He somehow thought it was the only way to end the pain he felt,and the shame he assumed his family felt. In my best mindset and kindest thoughts toward my family I would love to say that he did not recieve judgement but I recall the conversation less than a month ago.
I was sitting in mom's living room and we were discussing the upcoming family reunion and calendar. I mentioned the ones on missions and mom whispered in very quiet and quick response, "No, he's home now"... But he just left? Are you sure?.. "Yes, he came home... no one knows why"... Oh..
And that was the end of it. We are a family of DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL. Denial and illusion is the glue that holds us together. A week later he was dead.
On reconciling being LDS and pretending to be LDS in order to be allowed to participate in family gatherings.
Something that's been brought up before but still ruminates in my head is the idea/or puzzlement of what do other religious types do when they discover their church doctrine/history, heirarchy are full of ****? How do Catholics reconcile the bloody inquisition, the corruption and dark torture and horrific shennanigans of the church? What part of the doctrine resonates with them enough to look past the henious crimes of their church, and onto the good stuff that they seem to glean. Is it the pretty buildings, the pomp and circumstance, the big hats, the fancy robes, or the music. Is it just tradiition and connection through the community or family that keeps them involved? Do most of them actually believe? What is it that the Catholics have that the LDS don't that keep so many of their own connected even after all the tripe from their past?
Then the next question, once one has reconciled the church's past, admitted the baloney and falsehoods, acknowledged the atrocities and lies, then do they still see the value of connection, the sense of community, the feeling of tradition and continuity as worth glazing over all the rest in order to have the 'Good stuff".
Say I got to missing my family stuff so much, or my grandkids were getting blessed, baptized, married, etc. and I just couldn't miss out on it,... how does one go about playing along in order to be part of those traditions? I couldn't act my way back into the temple if I had a Kenneth Branaugh tutor for a year, but many LDS do it and manage to make peace with it in their heads, at least enough to play along and attend the family functions. I can't say I admire those that blatantly lie in order to go to their daughters wedding but I don't know how noble it is to miss it either. It's a quandry for sure.
On ignorance and shelterd mentality but good hearted service:
At my nephews funeral I was touched by the way the whole community which is more LDS than most Utard communities came rallied around my brother and his family. They really are good people and they do good things. They stand for good values and they help each other and their families. The service aspects are commendable. The tenderness and compassion are sweet. I have no qualms with the sincerity of their efforts on my brothers behalf. I don't doubt their love or connection. Its just that it comes at such a price if you don't conform or stay in line with their thinking.
I was wearing a jacket with a Barack Obama logo on it after the funeral. I could have had tentacles growing out of my forehead and a forked tail for the looks I got. The young people were fine with it, even enthusiastic, but my TBM sister seemed perplexed as to why I'd be representing a Muslim Terrorist, and one of my brothers suggested that If it wasn't God's will that Mitt Romney win, he'd be ready to vote for Barack just because 'he's NOT Hillary". These people are absolutely our of their minds with ignorance!!!
As much as I love and admire aspects of the church lifestyle and family support, I just cringe with shame at the stupidity, the backward ignorance, the near retarded blind mentality of many of the members.
On the new LDS Prophet/President/CEO guy
Monson seems like a nice harmless and sweet sort of emotional man. Maybe he's the face of the new church that will elevate gays and women to human being status and maybe he'll be the voice of compassion toward parents that want to participate in their own childs wedding. GBH set the stage for a more mainstream tolerance, so now Monson can seal the deal with some humanity and tenderness toward those who most deserve it. Not that that would make me be a Mor-bot again, but it would go a long way to make those still caught up in it more comfortable and keep the exodus from the LDS chapels from getting out of hand. Maybe we'll see the new Gay Pride groups at the "Days of 47" Pioneer Parade. That would be fun. A bunch of Nancy's in frilly gingham frocks marching with the "Bretheren". That's entertainment!!!
On my knowledge of sports (this is a test to see if anyone is reading this):
Hey, I love the World Bowl when all those tall sweaty guys dribble rim shots up and down the field, hitting home runs, and bogeying bank shots. The cheerleaders are cute and the very best part is always the commercials. I love hot girl mud wrestling. And chips go on sale at the Wal-mart, so it's a win/ win for me no matter whether the Red Injuns Stockings or the New England Cowboys are in the playoffs. Don't get me started on the excitement during the second inning of the 6th quarter though. I nearly pee my pants with anticipation.
On Patriarchial Blessings:
When I read the horrorscopes in the newspaper I get a kick out of mixing them up and pretending to read aloud the month of my victim, when actually I'm reading some other month. The believers nod and say, "Yes, that makes sense" and I get some silly thrill from duping them. I think the Patriarchial blessings are similar and the patriarchs have a set of generic, innocuous, un-defined things that they can toss into a salad and then the reciever gets to spend the rest of his/her life trying to decipher the vague words. We could make one of those patriarchial blessing generators like they do the Mormon name generator only with the typical sayings.
Pick your favorites and mix and match them for the best outcome. Interpret them at will, and then have someone else interpret them and see if you come up with the same interpretation. I see a board game coming on!!! The best patriarchial blessing wins. Parchisi Patriarchial Blessings!! Chutes and Ladders Patriarchial Blessings!! Hungry Hungry Hippo Patriarchial Blessings!!
On The LDS heirarchy and politics:
The LDS OFFICIAL CHURCH is quick to distance themselves from most political situations, but are very subtle and devious in getting the minnions of lacky followers to do their bidding, fund the bizarre policies, or back some lunatic that they want to help them get their agenda through the political machine. I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore's tactics, but some of his exposee's have credence and the way the Morg and local hicks in Happy Valley created a near war on anyone that wanted to hear M.M speak at Utah Valley College (not church owned but a STATE/PUBLIC facility) was picketed and every attendee acosted and intimidated just for wanting to have the right to free speech and allow the same to others. There's a You Tube showing this conflict and it's aftermath. Type in Michael Moore/Provo. It's eye opening in how the Morg influences voters to do their bidding.
That said, Mitt can do and say anything he wants and be absolved of judgement from the Morg. I hear rabid LDS Nazi types defend his flip flopping on the issues you mentioned and they are so clueless to the level of corruption that Mitt has engaged in in his political and business career that they would be as shocked and incensed to it as they would if they were to actually investigate the history of JS. The mindset is so closed, so narrow, so full of some bizarre illusion that "THIS IS THE TIME AND DISPENSATION TO BRING TO PASS THE ETERNAL LIFE AND POWER OF THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH OF THE ALLMIGHTY GOD". THey actually believe that Mitt Romney is a tool of the Lord for the uplifitng of the church, and that whatever he has to say and do to attain his power is justified by the Lord, and the church. Read "Lying for the Lord" and you'll get a taste of his background and tactics.
More on suicide among young men in the LDS church:
I keep replaying the lifetime of my nephews influences and I think from the time the ultrasound technician discovered he had a little speck of the stuff boys are made of instead of the even littler speck of stuff girls are made of, that his destiny was mapped out in the church's eyes. By the time he can form whole sentences he's reciting his mantra of the typical testimony (insert yours here without taking a breath nameajeezechristnamen). He was taught the holy chant of "I hope they call me on a mission" and whoever sung it loudest was more righteous and a bigger spiritual giant than the rest. The missionary piggy bank, the missionary costume and the way little guys are supposed to look up to the big brother/uncle, etc. that is leaving on his, or returning from 'THE BEST TWO YEARS OF YOUR LIFE". Even girls go, and if they haven't had the good fortune to capture a man, they serve the Loword by handing out phamplets at Church history sites and serving as secretaries and such in far away places. Even grandparents go on missions.
Heck, if you don't go on a mission by the time the 18th birthday candles have stopped smoking, you're a damn failure. GET WITH THE PROGRAM MAN!!! If you don't enjoy the MTC brainwashing then just wait a week or so till you're dumped willy nilly in the middle of a third world country with nothing to defend against the big wide world than some silly scriptures and a backpack with a water bottle in it.
Hey, if you can't cut it out there with the desperately poor people all around you in the sweaty masses, the sirens, the strange smells, the different food, the language that streams into unfamiliar ears, the lonliness from family, the disorientation from the things you know and love, the connection to community, etc. then YOU'RE A FREAKING LOSER!!!!!
THen there's the not so subtle messages of "If a young man doesn't fullfill a mission then good LDS girls shouldn't date him or choose him as a partner". "If a young man doesn't fullfill a mission he may never hold his head high in church again, and he may be denied advancement in the Priesthood, including his Elder status revoked till he is in his 30's and then it's some token parting gift on the way to the high priest quorum". "If a young man doesn't fullfill a mission it may hinder his chances at getting a good job in the future.". " If a young man doesn't fullfill a mission he may find it hard to get into BYU or other colleges". "He will bring shame on his family". "He will not be seen as a MAN by young ladies or his peers.". These bull**** messages add up. They cut into the heart. They rape the mind of a sweet innocent kid. They enrage me. I want to scream out that THIS CHURCH AND IT"S SICK CULTURE IS WRONG!
The sick and erronious assumptions that my sweet nephew may have transgressed in some way are whispered in hushed tones. I couldn't care less if a man is gay or not, but the first thing I heard was, "Do you think he may have been gay?". Then theres the suggestion that he must have been suffereing from mental illness because anyone in their right mind would never do such a thing, and since he was apparantly temporarily "RETARDED" he will be forgiven by God and get his chance to FULLFILL HIS GOSH DANGED MISSION IN HEAVEN!!
Now this one is chock full of stuff if you really want to know why people leave. My good friend gave me permission to post this. You asked for it:
February 14, 2008
Yes as we all know it is Valentine's Day. The day best known for "love". The Mormon church is known for their song "Love One Another", since it is after all, the Golden Rule, right?
So what do I wake up to this morning? My husband informing me that the Bishop and a HC stopped by to serve me with a "disciplinary court"; a.k.a. "The Court of Love"; paper. Apparently the Bishop disapproves of some of the links on my family web-site. A web-site (yes this one) that I pay for every year out of my own money. Under the constitution, which from my understanding the Mormon Church vowed to "Obey the Laws of the Land"; allows me to my freedom of speech. I have not blogged on this site about my religious beliefs, or how I came to my beliefs. In fact I have not really spoken to anyone in my family about my beliefs lately either. I've briefly asked questions and I messaged between one of my sister's, but still what business is it of the Mormon Church who I talk to about religion? Apparently they think and make it their business. Nothing like having your free speech trampled on.
So any ways, I've been "served" with an invitation to this disciplinary court. I have behavior unbecoming to a Mormon. LOL I am a Mormon who likes to think and talk - how dare I!! ((gasp))
You know Boyd K. Packer once stated that the downfall to the Mormon Church would be Feminists, Gays, and Intellectuals. Well, I am not gay, but I am a feminist and an intellectual, so I guess I am a bigger threat than I thought I was. I am of the mindset to usually let people believe what they want to believe, but I love to try and understand why they believe the way they do. I've done this on many subjects. On some issues I've changed my mind, on other's it's just reaffirmed my position on a subject or issue.
I know for some family members I may have come off as combative or offensive, or even defensive. I never meant to. I simply want to understand things from your point of view. From all of what I have learned over the past 3-4 years (yes that is how long I have been researching and learning about Mormon History) I can not believe in the Mormon Church any longer (I'll get into why later). This hasn't been an easy decision and it was one I was still trying to process and deal with emotionally until today. Now I feel forced to either resign or attend a "court of love" that I don't believe in. God gives us a lifetime to make mistakes and learn from them. He lets us find our way, our own way. He doesn't stop us in the middle of our process and say "Hey you are doing it wrong. Now you must leave the Earth." Could you imagine if that really happened? No one would be left on Earth!
I can't tell anyone what they should or should not believe in, like some people. I can tell you what it is we do believe in though. Take it or leave it. We believe in the freedom of religious expression. All individuals should be encouraged to develop their own personal theologies, and to present openly their religious opinions without fear of censure or reprisal. We can't do that in the Mormon Church. Just look at me! I'm being called in because I had a few links on my own personal family web-site, I posted a couple of personal fact based blogs, and even talked to someone in another ward whom they suspect of similar "behaviors". All circumstantial and all kind of silly. They don't know what I talked about with this person, and my blog is and was fact based information that even the LDS church has on record; yet somehow the Bishop found offensive, ironically.
There is no room for thinking outside the box within the Mormon Church. If you are a convert then you are asked simply to pray about something to know if it is true or not. They don't ask you to research it's origins, content, or even author. They want you to base your beliefs on a feeling. Then they want you to repeat a mantra of "I KNOW this church is true, and I KNOW Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and I KNOW Thomas S. Monson is a Prophet today. In all honesty not a single one saying that they "KNOW" this, truly KNOW it. They BELIEVE it to be true. It's a huge leap from believing to knowing. I KNOW the sky is blue because I have seen it. I can BELIEVE it is green in another part of the country or world because it is possible, but I do not know this as a fact.
We believe in the toleration of religious ideas. All religions, in every age and culture, possess not only intrinsic merit but also potential value for those who have learned the art of listening. One of my favorite quotes comes from Aristotle which reads - "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." One can hold onto their beliefs, while listening to different beliefs, while researching historical facts, etc etc etc. If one is not strong in his or her belief then they fear the unknown. They fear hearing something that may make themselves question the way they currently believe. They fear what is known as "cognitive dissonance". [In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.] I however believe we are all intertwined and we all have good within us and we can all learn from each other. I don't believe the Mormon Church is the "one and only true church". To me this is impossible. First of all if that were the case, everyone who ever prayed to know if the church they belonged to was really the right one would be told "No" and directed to the Mormon Church. People would be joining the Mormon church in droves, not leaving it. Also, considering that the Mormon church has less than 1% of the world as members, AND has seen a steady decline in conversions, and increase in resignations, it is impossible for me to again believe that the Mormon's have the "true" key to salvation.
We also believe in the authority of reason and conscience. The ultimate arbiter in religion is not a church, nor a document, nor an "official" but the personal choice and decision of the individual. We believe in the never-ending search for TRUTH. If the mind and heart are truly free and open, the revelations that appear to the human spirit are infinitely numerous, eternally fruitful, and wondrously exciting.
We believe in the worth and dignity of each human being. All people on earth have an equal claim to life, liberty, and justice - and no idea, ideal, or philosophy is superior to a single human life. We believe in the ethical application of religion. Good works are the natural product of a good faith, the evidence of an inner grace that finds completion in social and community involvement. Also in the motive force of love. The governing principle in human relationships is the principle of love, which always seeks the welfare of others and never seeks to hurt or destroy. These are some of the things we truly believe in.
I don't claim that I know I am right and you are wrong. I don't claim that at all. I believe we all have our own paths to follow and seeking our own true happiness is what truly matters. I shouldn't have to be subjected to a religious court for any reason. I didn't do anything wrong. The Mormon church encourages education and knowledge, so why are they trying to prevent me from learning? Because of whatI am learning they want to prevent me from spreading what I've learned, whether it is fact or fiction "they" (the Mormon Church) don't want you to know the truth. Again, if it is truly the one and only true church then why should facts be so scary? Why is the history covered up, or sanitized?
The links that my Bishop disapproved of were added to my web-site a good 2 years ago or more, but it wasn't until recently that they became an issue, for some reason, even though the links haven't changed any. So since my views changed and it has been brought to my attention that my link section was "questionable", I thought I'd edit it more. I removed some links which I don't believe in anymore, but have added some which give a more fair and balanced view of Mormonism. I am NOT asking anyone to look through the links, or click on the links at all. It is a personal choice to open Pandora's box or not. As Morpheus said "This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." I've chosen the Red Pill and I can never go back to the way I used to be, to the way I used to think and believe. I am different now, and I am grateful.
Some may be asking themselves what it is I could have possibly learned that has caused my Bishop to fear me and try and send me to a disciplinary counsel? Well if you have to ask then you may not want to keep reading. Here is where I am giving you the option of the Blue Pill or the Red Pill. Remember once you take the Red Pill you can never go back.
The church is not what it claims to be, and all evidence falsifies the church. The church is good at instilling ethics and values, so it is disturbing when it doesn't follow its own teachings on honesty. After years of intensive research and documentation of all sides, we choose to no longer belong to an organization that deceives its members.
Yes, I've read the apologetics (defenses) of FARMS, FAIR, Meridian, Daniel Peterson, John Sorenson, Jeff Lindsay, Kerry Shirts, Bill Hamilton, John Pratt, Scott Woodward, John Tvedtnes, Matthew Roper, Jeffrey Meldrum, Trent Stephens, Hugh Nibley [lds-mormon.com/nibley1] and many others, as well as Limited Geography Theory, two Cumorahs, Bat Creek Stone, NHM, chiamus, word printing, etc.
I have even double-checked many of their sources, and read the books they referenced. In every case I checked, the evidence was non-existent or twisted and distorted. Why are there only disingenuous obfuscations that strain credulity? I could overlook if there were just a few of the problems mentioned below, but with all the issues together, the picture becomes overwhelmingly clear. A side benefit is that all the dissonance between science and religion has melted.
Since outside information is more credible and accurate, I know now that efforts to steer me away were to hide the sanitized and revisionist history. Being told not to read something should have been my first clue.
Multiple social science studies have demonstrated that once indoctrinated into a set of beliefs, only 5% are able to break free of that indoctrination. For that 5% open to examining the foundations of their religion, I ask the following questions for which documentation is easily obtained on the internet from hundreds of sources. A gentle and balanced starting place is here: trialsofascension.net/mormon
Since the Book of Abraham is a fake translation of common Egyptian funeral papyri dated centuries after the time of Abraham, why does the church hide this fact from its members and continue to claim that the book is of divine origin when it has been known otherwise since 1966 when the papyri were found at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City? "Catalyst for inspiration" and Hugh Nibley's Sen-sen defense are not supported by the evidence. [irr.org/MIT/Books/BHOH/bhohintr (broken link)]
I was taught that Joseph Smith was visited by God and Jesus. Now I learn there are at least three additional contradictory Smith versions of the First Vision where only one angel appeared, or only the Lord appeared, or many angels appeared. If I were visited by Deity, it would make such an impression that I would remember by whom and how many. If God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and told him none of the churches were true and to join none of them, why did he join the Methodists? After Alvin's death in 1823, why did Joseph pray, "if a supreme being existed" since he would already know? Why does the church teach a religious revival started in 1820, when it was actually 1824? Why is there no evidence of Smith's "persecution" in 1820?[ i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_questions]
Why was Angel Moroni called Angel Nephi by Joseph Smith and his mother Lucy? If I'd been visited by an angel, I think I'd get the name right.[ utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims1 ]
Why did Smith marry and have sex with 11 women who were married to other men at the same time, some of whom he sent away on missions before marrying their wives? Why did he marry young teenagers, including 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, who had both parents and didn't want to be married?[ signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insacred ]
Most of these are documented on the church's own genealogy website at: familysearch.org [enter Joseph Smith, 1805 birth]. Why did Smith practice polygamy in secret for 10 years before the D&C 132 "revelation" which was to get Emma off his back?"[ i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex] Why did Joseph marry Fanny Alger in 1833 when the restoration of sealing power by Elijah didn't happen until 1836? In Europe, why did John Taylor say accusations of polygamy were lies when he already had multiple wives back in the USA? [utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech9c]
Why did the church teach me that Smith was tarred-and-feathered by anti-Mormons because Satan was persecuting him, when the reality was they were Mormons avenging their young sister towards whom Smith had made sexual advances, and Dr. Dennison was brought along for castration? [blog.mrm.org/2006/03/tarred-feathered]
Why did the church teach me that polygamy was for the support of widows and surplus single women, when there was actually a shortage of women? [i4m.com/think/polygamy/utah_census] Then why didn't Smith provide support for his 33+ wives? Why did General Authorities keep sealing new polygamous marriages for at least 16 years after Wilford Woodruff's Manifesto? [xmission.com/~country/chngwrld/chap9c (broken link)]
For restoration, why would God choose a man who was a money-digger, glass-looker, treasure-seeker, and was convicted as such in court in 1826? "He was only human," but why didn't God at least choose an honorable man? [xmission.com/~country/reason/ny_js (broken link) and utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4 ]
We have physical evidence of Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Olmecs, Toltecs, Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Norse in Greenland, and hundreds of other civilizations. Where is any evidence of the civilizations of millions of people in The Book of Mormon? As far as "someday science will find," science has expanded exponentially, especially with ground-penetrating radar and aerial surveillance, but the increasing finds of science all contradict The Book of Mormon.
In lake sediment cores, where are the durable pollen grains of wheat, barley, figs, grapes, or flax, or evidence of these plants in middens? Where is the evidence of metallurgy, steel swords or slag heaps, or coins and silk, chariots and wheels, or horses, elephants, asses, goats, sheep, pigs, and cows? Why is there impossible population growth in The Book of Mormon?[ josephlied.com/population] Where is the geologic evidence of a global Noachian flood, or geologic or dendroclimatology evidence of the physical upheavals in 3rd Nephi? [irr.org/mit/bomarch2 (broken link) and irr.org/mit/smithson (broken link)]
Why is there no linguistic evidence of ancient Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian? Since languages have evolved for tens of thousands of years, why did the Jaredites come from the Tower of Babel which never existed? Jaredite barges are not functional reality. [
Well Artemesia (I like that name by the way). I hope you find peace and harmony on your new path.
Healing from mormonism is no joke. It's a process and I am in the process right now. As we leave or transition it's important to keep in mind that the one's who stay are not our enemies, they are our friends and in some cases neighbors. They are still are brothers and sisters and their beliefs even though different are still to be honored and respected.
My anger isn't at my family or even the low end masses of Mormons. In some ways, they're subjected to the same indoctrination I and many others have been through. To leave one pays such a high price that even those that evolve into a more logical thought pattern, or start to weigh fact and myth end up having to choose between being true to themselves and the promptings of their heart and mind, and staying in for the sake of the family. I wish I was the only one who felt this way. I wish no one else had had to make the ultimate sacrifice in choosing their own sanity or acquiescing and "Holding to the rod" with their eyes shut, head down, mouth and mind closed tight" in order to be included. I may seem rabid, but I approach it with playfullness, irreverence, and a sense of humor. THat seems the only way to make what in some ways felt horrific seem palatable. The title of this post is fair warning. If you're devout LDS, then don't look. I don't look at sites called "PORN" or "Republican Justification of George W. Bush" because I don't want to have my eyes assaulted with those things. If you don't like what EX MOrmons think, don't read this thread. If you have things you're working through and need a sympathetic ear, then in the words of Gee Duh-bya, "Bring it on!!".
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