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No, the field of religion and spirituality do not work the same as that. That you do not grasp this shows that you grossly underestimate people and simply can't grasp the role and value of nourishing our spirit.
remember now trap, he is pushing a statement of belief. that has some limitations. but so does the belief statement about an omni-god. answering to a belief statement over "how does the universe work" holds some of us back.
belief statement about god = statement of belief about god
No, the field of religion and spirituality do not work the same as that. That you do not grasp this shows that you grossly underestimate people and simply can't grasp the role and value of nourishing our spirit.
Yes, I concede that 'Spirituality' is not debunked by the debunking of the god claim, Bible, Resurrection and so -on. All that is in our sights is Organized religion and its' undeserved influence.
'Spirituality' (and I believe I get your very particular use of that term) is not what we are after. I don't blame you for thinking that our rationalist basis means that we are trying to debunk and wipe out all claims, belief and discussion of 'spirituality'. We may not accept it as others do, but it's a matter of research and discussion. It is not something Militant atheists feel has to be wee beeded out of society.
This will not - I have little doubt - end persistent and rather ill informed and poorly thought out accusations that we goddless bastards are failing to understand this, consider that, or lack the intelligence to comprehend the other. But that (as always) doesn't matter. We will continue to put our case plus clarifications such as was needed to address your pertinent point and let those with ears to hear, eyes to read, and opraional brains to think with, understand atheism, its' rationale, arguments, agenda and aims, better than they do now.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-26-2017 at 01:42 PM..
Yes, I concede that 'Spirituality' is not debunked by the debunking of the god claim, Bible, Resurrection and so -on. All that is in our sights is Organized religion and its' undeserved influence.
'Spirituality' (and I believe I get your very particular use of that term) is not what we are after. I don't blame you for thinking that our rationalist basis means that we are trying to debunk and wipe out all claims, belief and discussion of 'spirituality'. We may not accept it as others do, but it's a matter of research and discussion. It is not something Militant atheists feel has to be wee beeded out of society.
This will not - I have little doubt - end persistent and rather ill informed and poorly thought out accusationsthat we goddless bastards are failing to understand this, consider that, or lack the intelligence to comprehend the other. But that (as always) doesn't matter. We will continue to put our case plus clarifications such as was needed to address your pertinent point and let those with ears to hear, eyes to read, and opraional brains to think with, understand atheism, its' rationale, arguments, agenda and aims, better than they do now.
you might want to address the whole "it's OK to practice deception to peddle atheism" platform of your mission statement, along with "how we treat others doesn't matter"
because loud and clear that is what those with ears are hearing, those with eyes are seeing, those with operational brains are recognizing, and those with integrity intact (you left that part out) are noticing
and walking away from. big time.
it is very clear what your rationale, arguments, agenda and aims are. They are transparent, utterly transparent.
It's not about atheism. It's about you and anyone else who practices the same behavior, who justifies, defends and condones the deception and dishonesty, just like those who perpetrate fake hate crimes.
It's not about atheists. There are upright honest atheists with sterling character, integrity intact, and a functioning moral compass. (I know this both in theory and in real life and even on this very forum because they have been sending me messages saying "it's not right to do that.")
it's just that....you're not one of them.
And your behavior, since you identify as an atheist and are peddling atheism does have a negative impact and deleterious effect on "how people view atheists and atheism." put another way...you're making them look bad.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-26-2017 at 03:12 PM..
deception and dishonesty = some people in theism = some people in atheism
sterling character, integrity intact, and a functioning moral compass= some people in theism = some people in atheism
jerky people = jerks
nice people = nice
again, belief statements about god are scalars
atheism=theism=just scalars.
you might want to address the whole "it's OK to practice deception to peddle atheism" platform of your mission statement, along with "how we treat others doesn't matter"
because loud and clear that is what those with ears are hearing, those with eyes are seeing, those with operational brains are recognizing, and those with integrity intact (you left that part out) are noticing
and walking away from. big time.
it is very clear what your rationale, arguments, agenda and aims are. They are transparent, utterly transparent.
It's not about atheism. It's about you and anyone else who practices the same behavior, who justifies, defends and condones the deception and dishonesty, just like those who perpetrate fake hate crimes.
It's not about atheists. There are upright honest atheists with sterling character, integrity intact, and a functioning moral compass. (I know this both in theory and in real life and even on this very forum because they have been sending me messages saying "it's not right to do that.")
it's just that....you're not one of them.
And your behavior, since you identify as an atheist and are peddling atheism does have a negative impact and deleterious effect on "how people view atheists and atheism." put another way...you're making them look bad.
you might want to address the whole "it's OK to practice deception to peddle atheism" platform of your mission statement, along with "how we treat others doesn't matter"
because loud and clear that is what those with ears are hearing, those with eyes are seeing, those with operational brains are recognizing, and those with integrity intact (you left that part out) are noticing
and walking away from. big time.
it is very clear what your rationale, arguments, agenda and aims are. They are transparent, utterly transparent.
It's not about atheism. It's about you and anyone else who practices the same behavior, who justifies, defends and condones the deception and dishonesty, just like those who perpetrate fake hate crimes.
It's not about atheists. There are upright honest atheists with sterling character, integrity intact, and a functioning moral compass. (I know this both in theory and in real life and even on this very forum because they have been sending me messages saying "it's not right to do that.")
it's just that....you're not one of them.
And your behavior, since you identify as an atheist and are peddling atheism does have a negative impact and deleterious effect on "how people view atheists and atheism." put another way...you're making them look bad.
Well, that was a pretty clear attempt at ad hom. But transparently false because it is about the rational basis of atheism and attempts to attack atheism, never mind individual atheists is absolutely the attack, hostility, denigration, ...etc. that theist apologists of various stripe regularly accuse us of. I am constantly amazed a the regular projection of their own faults, their own failings their own illogic onto us. And I find it hilarious that they prove this by shooing each other down over details of their faith-beliefs on which they disagree.
And just a friendly bit of advice - when you find Arach trying to clamber aboard your election -bus to use for his own personal bandwagon, you know it's time to change your election slogan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
No, the field of religion and spirituality do not work the same as that. That you do not grasp this shows that you grossly underestimate people and simply can't grasp the role and value of nourishing our spirit.
Oh I know that. In fact I said the God-claim works the same- unproven to be so until the evidence makes it stick.
The implied add - on was 'correct logical reasoning says' but I ought to have known that it would be missed -just as theist hearing 'There is no God" miss "No dar as evidence indicates".
It's the old attempt to discredit evidence using the 100% before yore werry eyes argument (1) and try to pass off Faith -belief as Fact and our pointing more likely interpretations as not understanding and we can't imagine how wonderful it is. They seem to forget that half of us used to be there and they KNOW how wonderful these feelings are, but they came to see that reason and evidence and not brainwashing ones'self in better in the long run.
And you can save yourself the trouble of getting angry and bitter as you so often do, because you can believe whatever you like. I merely explain why we don't buy your claims for very good reasons, and your efforts to debunk us using reason fail, because your reasoning is flawed.
When you are not trying to shore up untenable faith -claims however, you can with one shot bring Mystic down in flames, despite his having more certificates than you could paper your house with. because you saw clearly and obviously the logical flaw that he (blinded by faith) somehow is incapable of seeing.
(1) there was an amusing cartoon of a preacher holding up the bible and pointing the sky (as a symbolic indication of God out there somewhere) while an atheist throws their eyeballs in the dustbin and says "I won't believe it unless I see it".
It's funny because in fact it is theists who do this kind of denial of fact and reliance on Faith.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-27-2017 at 03:55 AM..
you might want to address the whole "it's OK to practice deception to peddle atheism" platform of your mission statement, along with "how we treat others doesn't matter"
because loud and clear that is what those with ears are hearing, those with eyes are seeing, those with operational brains are recognizing, and those with integrity intact (you left that part out) are noticing
and walking away from. big time.
it is very clear what your rationale, arguments, agenda and aims are. They are transparent, utterly transparent.
It's not about atheism. It's about you and anyone else who practices the same behavior, who justifies, defends and condones the deception and dishonesty, just like those who perpetrate fake hate crimes.
It's not about atheists. There are upright honest atheists with sterling character, integrity intact, and a functioning moral compass. (I know this both in theory and in real life and even on this very forum because they have been sending me messages saying "it's not right to do that.")
it's just that....you're not one of them.
And your behavior, since you identify as an atheist and are peddling atheism does have a negative impact and deleterious effect on "how people view atheists and atheism." put another way...you're making them look bad.
In all fairness with the amount of information available these days we are running out of people wiling to defend a global flood. Those that are left probably aren't the kind willing to expose themselves to criticism on an open forum. Someone's got to do it.
Thank you to mensa, trans, arach, gaylen, nozz who have all pointed out astonishingly accurate parallels, and for providing the idea for this thread.
The topic of this thread is to highlight what we have in common.
The use of the equal sign in this thread is shorthand to indicate exact same behavior, or exact same mindset. Sort of a step beyond you do it too (which is just finger pointing and doesn't get us anywhere in discussing and understanding each other's views or the topics we are discussing in religion spirituality forum
to recognizing our blind spots and hopefully treating each other with increased dignity courtesy and respect.
Rabid atheist = rabid Christian = rabid spiritual but not religious
Person using the phrase rabid atheist = person using the phrase rabid Christian
Rabid = militant = extremist = attacking
Science doesn't know that yet = God works in mysterious ways
At least science can admit we don't know = his thoughts are not our thoughts
Not all atheists believe that = Not all religious people believe that
Your view of atheists is ridiculous and does not describe me at all = your view of why people are religious is way off the mark and bears no resemblance to me at all
Respect = dignity = courtesy
What parallels have you seen? How is recognizing them useful?
There are liberals and conservatives in both religion/spirituality, non-religion/spirituality, and anti-religion/spirituality. The difference between science and monotheism is that science can't really be called science if it's a claim without any proofs or testable evidence.
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But transparently false because it is about the rational basis of atheism and attempts to attack atheism, never mind individual atheists is absolutely the attack, hostility, denigration, ...etc. that theist apologists of various stripe regularly accuse us of. I am constantly amazed a the regular projection of their own faults, their own failings their own illogic onto us. And I find it hilarious that they prove this by shooing each other down over details of their faith-beliefs on which they disagree. 
