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Hush, I've got a great idea. Why don't you go to Africa and tell these starving children that if they'll just accept Jesus as their savior Jesus will ease the pain in their bellies. He'll do it, won't he? "Whatsoever you ask for in prayer, believe and it shall be done for you". Mark 11:24
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This ignorant argument has always been the ultimate backfire.
Why don't you go to Africa and tell the starving children the truth: That Jesus was an incredibly influential man that died 2000 years ago and his "Father" Jehovah was a metaphorical character...and thus unable to do anything for them and could not be blamed in any way for not helping their plight.
OTOH...there are real people alive today that COULD pay for the three 5 cent bowls of rice per day they need so they won't starve...but instead, they are sooooooo uncaring and evil that they keep their abudance and spend it on jewelry, flatscreens, computers & smart phones, automobiles, vacations, sports and artistic performances, booze, and consume so much more food than they need that many are obese.
Some have many hundreds, some many thousands, some have Millions, some even have BILLIONS!
THEY are the selfish, greedy ones that *could* easily buy the food you need so you won't starve to death...but won't & don't, and indulge themselves instead.
All the people that post on the Religion & Spirituality board of the City-Data website can be included in this list of people that could save you from dying, but don't.
Everything some blame a metaphorical character and a guy dead for 20 centuries for not doing...is what THEY are cabable of doing, but don't...and thus possess whatever fault they try to project upon entities they claim don't exist while inanely protesting their conduct.
This ignorant argument has always been the ultimate backfire. Why don't you go to Africa and tell the starving children the truth: That Jesus was an incredibly influential man that died 2000 years ago and his "Father" Jehovah was a metaphorical character...and thus unable to do anything for them and could not be blamed in any way for not helping their plight.
OTOH...there are real people alive today that COULD pay for the three 5 cent bowls of rice per day they need so they won't starve...but instead, they are sooooooo uncaring and evil that they keep their abudance and spend it on jewelry, flatscreens, computers & smart phones, automobiles, vacations, sports and artistic performances, booze, and consume so much more food than they need that many are obese.
Some have many hundreds, some many thousands, some have Millions, some even have BILLIONS!
THEY are the selfish, greedy ones that *could* easily buy the food you need so you won't starve to death...but won't & don't, and indulge themselves instead.
Because I don't believe your truth, Rule, obviously. And I still think you're a closeted Christian.
The secret to all this is to actually read the Bible IN THE ORDER IT WAS WRITTEN, that is, to start with the earliest Paul and then proceed to the last:
In this way you escape the Bible writers' blatant attempt to give the Christian community a complete picture of Jesus going out the gate by placing the gospels at the beginning of the NT before proceeding to the vague, nearly empty epistles of Paul which give no details of Jesus' life and instead talk completely about Paul's personal theology of how he thought Christianity should be.
Doing this allows the read to see how Christianity evolved from Paul, the true founder of Christianity, who had no idea where he was going to carry this legend of the Galilean, through to the gospels 40 years later where the details of how Jesus' life were going to be created and then actually get fleshed out through successive gospels until we arrive at the fully-formed mythic Jesus of John.
I agree. It was one of the Milestones in my Understanding ( .. ) of the NT when I sussed that the Gospels came after Paul and were based on his views and not Paul basin his views on the gospel Jesus. It is amazing how much of Paul looks like it supports the bodily resurrection, Jesus as divine, the wickedness of the Jewish teachers of the law and the gentile -friendly Christianity imputed to Jesus and supposedly reflecting the teaching of the apostles.
Well -I cancelled a long exposition. You seen it before and are probably sick of it. But once you understand what Paul was and was not teaching and indeed what he did and did not get from the apostles, then you can clearly see how the gospels built on that in a gradual re -invention of the messiah, redeeming though obedience, to God incarnate providing a way out of sin through the blood of the puir (1) bastad he was inhabiting, while he buggered off a day later to eternally banquet with the Old man. You can't blame him for putting off than damn' 2nd coming for 2,000 years and all that Ruling of the smelly humans when he can stay iin heaven and call for more wine and winged strippers.
No one in science ever said that the Big Bang is just a random chance.
No one in science ever said that DNA evolution is 100% random chance.
Chance and randomness do factor into evolution and the history of life in many different ways; however, some important mechanisms of evolution are non-random and these make the overall process non-random.
Yep. I am sure the problem is equivocation - yet again. They take the idea of unplanned, call it 'chance'/Random' and equivocate that to mean without physical processes and laws - just a formless jumble. No wonder they can't see how complex ordered things, processes and systems came out of it.
They cannot understand how those who are aware of the processes and systems and the means by which they evolved and the time it took, don't have the slightest intellectual problem with seeing the evolutionary process as not only credible, not only supported by evidence all the way but really being inevitable.
This ignorant argument has always been the ultimate backfire.
Why don't you go to Africa and tell the starving children the truth: That Jesus was an incredibly influential man that died 2000 years ago and his "Father" Jehovah was a metaphorical character...and thus unable to do anything for them and could not be blamed in any way for not helping their plight.
OTOH...there are real people alive today that COULD pay for the three 5 cent bowls of rice per day they need so they won't starve...but instead, they are sooooooo uncaring and evil that they keep their abudance and spend it on jewelry, flatscreens, computers & smart phones, automobiles, vacations, sports and artistic performances, booze, and consume so much more food than they need that many are obese.
Some have many hundreds, some many thousands, some have Millions, some even have BILLIONS!
THEY are the selfish, greedy ones that *could* easily buy the food you need so you won't starve to death...but won't & don't, and indulge themselves instead.
All the people that post on the Religion & Spirituality board of the City-Data website can be included in this list of people that could save you from dying, but don't.
Everything some blame a metaphorical character and a guy dead for 20 centuries for not doing...is what THEY are cabable of doing, but don't...and thus possess whatever fault they try to project upon entities they claim don't exist while inanely protesting their conduct.
it's very revealing to see you go for the throat of the Other side, though you 'ignorant argument' sounded like the illogical debunk you try to use against atheism.
I rather like that you give away your rationale - to just embroil with anyone and stack up credits by coring points however you can. But doing it where we can all see you, rather gives you away.
" First Saruman was shown that the power of his voice was waning. He cannot be both tyrant and counsellor. When the plot is ripe it remains no longer secret. Yet he fell into the trap, and tried to deal with his victims piece-meal, while others listened. " (Gandalf at Isengard "The voice of Saruman" (LoR/TT)
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-16-2017 at 09:38 AM..
Because I don't believe your truth, Rule, obviously. And I still think you're a closeted Christian.
You don't address the point that was made. Try dealing with that.
What you really put forth was basically an offshoot of "The Problem of Evil/Suffering".
I have seen it many times on this board. Others will pose "The Problem" and put up pictures of emaciated & starving, or injured children. This does stimulate emotions...but really adds nothing to the "Does A God Exist?" argument that isn't there without the specific descriptions.
What is so illogical that it is actually inane..is that some, like you, that don't even believe in the existence of some Omnimax God would then question why this nonexistent God doesn't act in some way!
That doesn't make any sense. Why question or get all worked up over the inaction of something that isn't real?!
There is no Deity that demonstrates its cruel insouciance by allowing suffering that could all be solved with a *SNAP*, but simply chooses not to.
So, what's with the all the fervent angst?
Well, I actually know why you are so upset about it...and I've posted it many times: WE ARE MAD AT OURSELVES!!
WE are the "selfish and cruel" that just watch the suffering we COULD do something about, but don't.
How many pairs of shoes do we own, but still buy more? What about something as worthless and frivolously expensive as jewelry...who has some of that? Vacations...for nothing more than our "enjoyment". Two, three, or more, flatscreens. How much money do we spend on sports in this country, both playing and observing? All while people starve...and there is a shortage of research dollars to find the cures for diseases.
I have donated most of the money I've made in my life...but have admited the portion I have retained is an obscene abundance, relative to any reasonable requirement. I bought a whole mountain, and built a huge glass front chalet on it, made from the finest of everything...so I wouldn't be "bothered"...while 3 five cent bowls of rice per day, per person, would save the lives of millions. How many bowls could be purchased with the difference between my estate and a small apartment?
People buy multi-million dollar paintings...just to look at. Ferraris, yachts, a 4th mansion, Rolex watches, and children have 7 or 8 hundred dollar smartphones. We spend hundreds of millions to explore outer space...for not much more than to satisfy our curiosity...instead of buying basic necessities and medical care for the poor. And how much time, effort, and money does mankind spend on militaries and waging war?
And as for other "bad things" in the world: It isn't the fault of the nonexistent Deities that a child is a rape victim...it is HUMANS conducting as rapists.
WE are the "selfish and uncaring Powerful Entities" that COULD do something, but DON'T. There are no EVIL DEITIES doing nothing even though they could..there is only US acting that way.
Your anger should be with yourself...and not illogically projected upon that which you claim does not exist.
It's quite amusing, Glldnrule, to see you tie yourself into rhetorical knots and then say 'Try getting yourself out of that!"
We Godless bastards and the believers can probably come together for this special occasion..of informing you that you make no sense, not even bad sense, and you probably don't even credit your arguments yourself.
it's very revealing to see you go for the throat of the Other side, though you 'ignorant argument' sounded like the illogical debunk you try to use against atheism.
I rather like that you give away your rationale - to just embroil with anyone and stack up credits by coring points however you can. But doing it where we can all see you, rather gives you away.
" First Saruman was shown that the power of his voice was waning. He cannot be both tyrant and counsellor. When the plot is ripe it remains no longer secret. Yet he fell into the trap, and tried to deal with his victims piece-meal, while others listened. " (Gandalf at Isengard "The voice of Saruman" (LoR/TT)
Debate the point Awk.
Try to set aside your headtrips about my opinion of the lack of logic in the concept of Atheism. Which is perfectly illustrated by the way many Atheists critique the action & inaction of entities they claim do not exist.
Few things are as "out there" as that. Questioning why something you claimed was nonexistent did or didn't behave in some way! WOW!
The Religious are confused, and think that metaphorical and allegorical stories are literal...and chalk up impossible things to the power of an Omnimax God.
But the Atheists basically question why there are no round squares or married bachelors, and ask about why there is silence that's too loud...yet claim their inquiries are all based on "reason"!
It's quite amusing, Glldnrule, to see you tie yourself into rhetorical knots and then say 'Try getting yourself out of that!"
We Godless bastards and the believers can probably come together for this special occasion..of informing you that you make no sense, not even bad sense, and you probably don't even credit your arguments yourself.
I'm so glad you are amused. Cool!
Now...address the point I made.
What logic is there in questioning the action or inaction of entities one claimed to be nonexistent?
You don't address the point that was made. Try dealing with that.
What you really put forth was basically an offshoot of "The Problem of Evil/Suffering".
I have seen it many times on this board. Others will pose "The Problem" and put up pictures of emaciated & starving, or injured children. This does stimulate emotions...but really adds nothing to the "Does A God Exist?" argument that isn't there without the specific descriptions.
What is so illogical that it is actually inane..is that some, like you, that don't even believe in the existence of some Omnimax God would then question why this nonexistent God doesn't act in some way!
That doesn't make any sense. Why question or get all worked up over the inaction of something that isn't real?!
There is no Deity that demonstrates its cruel insouciance by allowing suffering that could all be solved with a *SNAP*, but simply chooses not to.
So, what's with the all the fervent angst?
Well, I actually know why you are so upset about it...and I've posted it many times: WE ARE MAD AT OURSELVES!!
WE are the "selfish and cruel" that just watch the suffering we COULD do something about, but don't.
How many pairs of shoes do we own, but still buy more? What about something as worthless and frivolously expensive as jewelry...who has some of that? Vacations...for nothing more than our "enjoyment". Two, three, or more, flatscreens. How much money do we spend on sports in this country, both playing and observing? All while people starve...and there is a shortage of research dollars to find the cures for diseases.
I have donated most of the money I've made in my life...but have admited the portion I have retained is an obscene abundance, relative to any reasonable requirement. I bought a whole mountain, and built a huge glass front chalet on it, made from the finest of everything...so I wouldn't be "bothered"...while 3 five cent bowls of rice per day, per person, would save the lives of millions. How many bowls could be purchased with the difference between my estate and a small apartment?
People buy multi-million dollar paintings...just to look at. Ferraris, yachts, a 4th mansion, Rolex watches, and children have 7 or 8 hundred dollar smartphones. We spend hundreds of millions to explore outer space...for not much more than to satisfy our curiosity...instead of buying basic necessities and medical care for the poor. And how much time, effort, and money does mankind spend on militaries and waging war?
And as for other "bad things" in the world: It isn't the fault of the nonexistent Deities that a child is a rape victim...it is HUMANS conducting as rapists.
WE are the "selfish and uncaring Powerful Entities" that COULD do something, but DON'T. There are no EVIL DEITIES doing nothing even though they could..there is only US acting that way. Your anger should be with yourself...and not illogically projected upon that which you claim does not exist.
Rule, I seldom read a pile of meandering, ultimately meaningless diatribe like yours that goes in a thousand different directions without saying anything. I cannot possibly address this mess so I'll just go for the last point in bold.
I'm not angry with myself. I didn't create this shamble down here so I'm not responsible for it, God is. He set things up on earth where there isn't a penny's worth of verifiable proof He exists and then He casts 99% of the world into abject misery, disease, pain and poverty and then He does nothing to help them out of it and then He doesn't give us a thing to believe in, least of all a ridiculous book Jesus followers call the Bible which isn't worth the paper it's printed on far as giving us concrete proof He exists. It's riddled with mistakes, contradictions, outright stupid fables of donkeys talking, a man killing 100,000 Philistines with a jawbone, 4 million Hebrews walking in circles in a desert when if they just formed a human chain they could have stretched all the way to Canaan from Egypt, and ridiculous barbaric laws. It has a few good pieces of advice, "Love your neighbor, do unto others, etc but other than that it's worthless.
We're headed for extinction and God doesn't lift a finger. I could be angry at God if I felt it was His job to fix things down here but it isn't His job. He long ago just went AWOL and that was the end of it. There's no point in looking for help from Him because it just isn't coming. If God had any intention of helping us He would have done so long ago.
When I finally realized that God went AWOL millions of years ago I finally realized after years of being a Christian that if God was missing completely from earth then He had absolutely nothing to do with how Christianity got set up. That means Jesus was a figment of men's imaginations and the Bible is a totally human construct with absolutely no divinity involved in it. So the whole thing is a clusterflack and we are stuck with a cataclysmic disaster coming our way that cannot be dealt with. That's the state of things. If you believe in Jesus so much I told you to follow his command and go to Africa and preach to those starving children. Fool them into believing a myth loves them, it might ease the pain in their aching bellies for a while before they die of starvation. Why waste your time over here if you want to be of real use to someone and not just comfortably preaching from your pulpit?
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.. 
) of the NT when I sussed that the Gospels came after Paul and were based on his views and not Paul basin his views on the gospel Jesus. It is amazing how much of Paul looks like it supports the bodily resurrection, Jesus as divine, the wickedness of the Jewish teachers of the law and the gentile -friendly Christianity imputed to Jesus and supposedly reflecting the teaching of the apostles.
