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Youn ought to understand by now that 'believe' is too imprecise. All the Abrahamic religions believe in the one god you call Allah. That was understood from the start. But your analogy of not bringing the right fruits led to 'not obeying any Rule' in the Quran. What would happen if they did not? You quoted a verse implying that it will be all right for them on the last Day, If they believe and do good, as you say.
It looks as if you did not understand the analogy. I had mentioned "believe" and "deeds". Bringing something has to do with "deeds". We are given something as acts of devotion (I have mentioned that too). Jewish people were given acts of devotion to do. That's part of their covenant. Christians were also given acts of devotion to do. Those are part of their covenant. The Qur'an is our covenant with God. There are acts of devotion we are to do. Therefore, there are three groups of people each given acts of devotion. They are all three believers. As long as each group does the acts of devotion, they are still believers and do not need to fear going to hell.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
They do not need to convert, and you must know that converting is something very real. You also know that there are sects of Islam that do damn each other as well as non muslims to hell. Just as you would presumably consider those "Small' religions who do not believe in the Abrahamic God, to hell.
I also know that we are not to break into sects. It is clearly stated in the Qur'an that we should have nothing to do with those who break into sects. This is why I do not regard myself affiliated to any sect.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Nobody is accusing you of proselytizing or sending people to hell. I am asking you to say -in your view- whether not converting to the Muslim religion would condemn them. If you can't work that out from the Quran, what use is it, or your knowledge of it?
Why should it condemn them to hell if they convert to the Muslim religion?
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
"Can't tell what"/ Can't tell what the Quran says on whether non muslims (and I mean by muslims those who are Muslims, not those who just practice an Abrahamic religion) can expect to be sent to hell. What I was asking ought to be clear.
What's difference between those who practice an Abrahamic religion and those who are muslims? The Qur'an does not say that those who are muslims will go to hell.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
According the the statement I teased out of you, Jews and Christians needn't worry if they remain Jews and Christians.
You mean you made me quote the verse that you were not aware of? Anyone can read those verses without teasing out of me.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
If the Quran fails to make it clear so that other Muslims don't understand that too, it would be much better if they did remain Jews and Christians.
I have explained that too but you did not understand. They will get the benefit of observing whatever they have been given and double if they believe the Qur'an too and do accordingly (which in reality will not be different in essence but different acts of devotion still leading to submitting). It doesn't mean that what was given before the Qur'an shouldn't have been given and only the Qur'an should have been given. As I have stated, the Qur'an is progression of previous revelations; it is something completely new without any relation to the previous revelations.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I haven's asked you whether English is your first language. Your English is so good, I didn't think it mattered. But perhaps your odd idea that I am accusing you of trying to convert people (when I have said that your statement that they will be ok on the last day implies that you would think they needn't) or sending people to hell, when I was asking you what the Quran says about it, makes me wonder if you really can't read what I wrote.
I read and understood "casting the Muslim net" well. I did understand what you had meant. As for English, it's not my first language or even the second language. It's my third language originally but now on par with the originally second language.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
However the best comment which really should draw a line under the discussion (assuming other Muslims here don't know where to find you) is that you agree that Missionaries are playing with fire.
Are you now talking about Muslim missionaries or still talking about Christian Missionaries?
It looks as if you did not understand the analogy. I had mentioned "believe" and "deeds". Bringing something has to do with "deeds". We are given something as acts of devotion (I have mentioned that too). Jewish people were given acts of devotion to do. That's part of their covenant. Christians were also given acts of devotion to do. Those are part of their covenant. The Qur'an is our covenant with God. There are acts of devotion we are to do. Therefore, there are three groups of people each given acts of devotion. They are all three believers. As long as each group does the acts of devotion, they are still believers and do not need to fear going to hell.
Then the situation is just as it was before, just using 'acts of devotion' instead of "Rules' or 'fruits' as in the analogy. It is all the same. The 'fruits' mean that the rules (acts of devotion) are not the same or nobody would bring the wrong ones.
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I also know that we are not to break into sects. It is clearly stated in the Qur'an that we should have nothing to do with those who break into sects. This is why I do not regard myself affiliated to any sect.
And yet there are sects And mutually hostile ones, too. If you do not align with any sect, I suppose that is to your credit (though - as I said before I hope Muslims who DO belong to a sect do not know where you live). But the fact is that they damn each other to hell, never mind unbelievers, even Abrahamic ones. So even if you say they are all ok, Others won't share your views.
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Why should it condemn them to hell if they convert to the Muslim religion?
Because, unless you live in a glass bubble you can't be unaware of the tendency of one religion to damn the others to hell as unbelievers. Or even rival sects.
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What's difference between those who practice an Abrahamic religion and those who are muslims? The Qur'an does not say that those who are muslims will go to hell.
No. YOU say that. You made a point of good deeds being perhaps more important than rules in religions. You intimated that doing bad deeds would send people to hell rather than not following the right religion. When I asked you, agreed that Muslims who did bad deeds might go to Hell. If you now claim that the Quran doesn't say that, I suppose you have to say that you are doing the reasoning that Allah didn't bother with.
What's the difference? Well, you claim to have done the study - you tell me. This is why it's pointless urging me to mug up on the Quran. I could study it for years, and you might still disagree with me. So I'm asking you. If you say there is no difference, that merely bolsters your assurance that Jews and Christians (and Sabians, whatever they are) won't need to worry on the last Day. And may the Muslim Brotherhood never track you down.
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You mean you made me quote the verse that you were not aware of? Anyone can read those verses without teasing out of me.
And as I say, you could argue the meaning or translation with me. Heck, you even disagree about the meaning of Gospels quotes. What should I do other than ask you how YOU read it, even though it's like pulling teeth.
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I have explained that too but you did not understand. They will get the benefit of observing whatever they have been given and double if they believe the Qur'an too and do accordingly (which in reality will not be different in essence but different acts of devotion still leading to submitting). It doesn't mean that what was given before the Qur'an shouldn't have been given and only the Qur'an should have been given. As I have stated, the Qur'an is progression of previous revelations; it is something completely new without any relation to the previous revelations.
I understood perfectly. You seem to be unable to understand that I understood it perfectly. You seem to have a fondness for putting words in my mouth. I never said that the earlier revelations shouldn't have been given. Mystic here will probably instruct you in the "Learning - curve" method of spiritual education
The refinements about getting some special favour if they believe the Quran as well as the Torah and Gospels (I'd love to see them do it) and whether the Quran is considered related to totally separate, is beside the point. The only point relevant is whether submission (Islam) is just a blanket term for believing in the Abrahamic God, according to whatever Holy book they believe - and of course Abraham, before any book was even given; or whether it implies (as the OP Professor was suggesting) that Muslims are using it as a method or persuading Jews and Christians that, as they are doing "Islam" anyway, they should do it right and convert. You at first seemed to take the view with your analogy of bringing the wrong fruit, that they should do it according to the Quran. But you then seemed to show that it was all really the same, and, provided they did not believe the Quran was truly from God, Jews and Christians would have no cause to weep on the last day.
Good or bad deeds can hardly be regarded as three different fruits. It makes more sense as bringing three different religions to Allah. Does it matter? Will they go to hell if they get it wrong? You seem to suggest now they won't. No matter what you or I understand or misunderstand, such things are sorted by explanation.
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I read and understood "casting the Muslim net" well. I did understand what you had meant. As for English, it's not my first language or even the second language. It's my third language originally but now on par with the originally second language.
Then I'm impressed by how well you handle it. Dammit, your English is better than mine.
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Are you now talking about Muslim missionaries or still talking about Christian Missionaries?
Ah That's the nub. Of course we don't get Jewish missionaries. They have to tread warily. It isn't like under the Hasmoneans where they just march into the country next door and convert them (Edom, is what I had in mind) . But Christian and Muslim missionizing is infesting the world worse than Buddelia.
The danger (to remind you, if you forgot) is that getting a reluctant convert (say all the family converted, but one) who no longer followed his believed religion but practised (perforce) one he didn't believe, might put him in danger of hellfire. That (if so) would apply to Muslims and Christian alike, Missionaries or converts.
Not to Buddhists or Hindus. Adherents of those "Small" (idolatrous) religions are all going to burn anyway. Plus Atheists as kindling of course.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-18-2017 at 07:53 AM..
Then the situation is just as it was before, just using 'acts of devotion' instead of "Rules' or 'fruits' as in the analogy. It is all the same. The 'fruits' mean that the rules (acts of devotion) are not the same or nobody would bring the wrong ones.
This is where it would have been useful for you to have read the the Torah, the Gospels and the Qur'an to understand the difference between laws and acts of devotion. I have said that there are no new laws in the Qur'an just acts of devotion may be different. Going back to the fruit analogy, all sons were to bring fruit from the shop but one is told to bring oranges, the other pears and the third grapes. If they act as they are commanded, they have obeyed the law of bringing fruit. One may pray in a synagogue, church or mosque but what must be done is praying. You may fast 10 days or 30 days but what is to be done is fasting. The main thing to do is obeying God and it subsequently leads to helping the humanity in the way one may not know initially.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
And yet there are sects And mutually hostile ones, too. If you do not align with any sect, I suppose that is to your credit (though - as I said before I hope Muslims who DO belong to a sect do not know where you live). But the fact is that they damn each other to hell, never mind unbelievers, even Abrahamic ones. So even if you say they are all ok, Others won't share your views.
I am not here to expect others to share my views. If they do, they would be as peaceful as I am. If they do anything wrong they will bear the consequences. That doesn't mean that the whole religion is bad.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Because, unless you live in a glass bubble you can't be unaware of the tendency of one religion to damn the others to hell as unbelievers. Or even rival sects.
I too have a religion. You have seen that my religion has not damned other religions despite the intense coaxing. Why? Because my business is what I do and not what others do that does not have any adverse effect on me.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
No. YOU say that. You made a point of good deeds being perhaps more important than rules in religions.
You must have misunderstood me.
You are lost in between "muslim" and "Muslim".
Rules and laws must be positive for the earthly life (including the human life). That's how I see my religion, its rules and its laws. I don't see God in need of any of our good deeds; we are. Obeying rules and laws lead us to do good deeds.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
You intimated that doing bad deeds would send people to hell rather than not following the right religion. When I asked you, agreed that Muslims who did bad deeds might go to Hell. If you now claim that the Quran doesn't say that, I suppose you have to say that you are doing the reasoning that Allah didn't bother with.
Allah has declared how even so-called Muslims will be judged:
[7.8] And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful;
[7.9] And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they did injustice to the verses.
[101.1] The terrible calamity!
[101.2] What is the terrible calamity!
[101.3] And what will make you comprehend what the terrible calamity is?
[101.4] The day on which people shall be as scattered moths,
[101.5] And the mountains shall be as loosened wool.
[101.6] Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy,
[101.7] He shall live a pleasant life.
[101.8] And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light,
[101.9] His abode shall be the abyss.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
What's the difference? Well, you claim to have done the study - you tell me. This is why it's pointless urging me to mug up on the Quran. I could study it for years, and you might still disagree with me. So I'm asking you. If you say there is no difference, that merely bolsters your assurance that Jews and Christians (and Sabians, whatever they are) won't need to worry on the last Day. And may the Muslim Brotherhood never track you down.
So you do not know the difference between those who practice an Abrahamic religion and those who are muslims. I have done suficient spoon-feeding. You will have to mug up on the Qur'an if you are to challenge me on the Qur'an.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
And as I say, you could argue the meaning or translation with me. Heck, you even disagree about the meaning of Gospels quotes. What should I do other than ask you how YOU read it, even though it's like pulling teeth.
I have been backing up my views with the verses of the Qur'an. You can't do anything against that unless you read those verses and try to understand them.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I understood perfectly. You seem to be unable to understand that I understood it perfectly. You seem to have a fondness for putting words in my mouth.
I like giving them taste of their own medicine. Then they cry foul.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I never said that the earlier revelations shouldn't have been given. Mystic here will probably instruct you in the "Learning - curve" method of spiritual education
If you say what was the point of the Qur'an being revealed, why would you not say, using the same logic, that the earlier revelations shouldn't have been given. Are you trying to seek help from Mystic?
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
The refinements about getting some special favour if they believe the Quran as well as the Torah and Gospels (I'd love to see them do it) and whether the Quran is considered related to totally separate, is beside the point. The only point relevant is whether submission (Islam) is just a blanket term for believing in the Abrahamic God, according to whatever Holy book they believe - and of course Abraham, before any book was even given; or whether it implies (as the OP Professor was suggesting) that Muslims are using it as a method or persuading Jews and Christians that, as they are doing "Islam" anyway, they should do it right and convert. You at first seemed to take the view with your analogy of bringing the wrong fruit, that they should do it according to the Quran. But you then seemed to show that it was all really the same, and, provided they did not believe the Quran was truly from God, Jews and Christians would have no cause to weep on the last day.
Double benefit is believing both revelations. One is good enough but two is even better. I believe all of them.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Good or bad deeds can hardly be regarded as three different fruits.
Bringing three different types of fruit as commanded is still bringing only the FRUIT.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
It makes more sense as bringing three different religions to Allah. Does it matter?
This is where you do not understand that the religion from Allah is the same but acts of devotion may be different to sort out the false ones from the sincere ones.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Will they go to hell if they get it wrong? You seem to suggest now they won't. No matter what you or I understand or misunderstand, such things are sorted by explanation.
I have explained it, even in this post. Read the above verses!
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Then I'm impressed by how well you handle it. Dammit, your English is better than mine.
Thank you. I have tried hard to learn the language. I am still learning.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Ah That's the nub. Of course we don't get Jewish missionaries. They have to tread warily. It isn't like under the Hasmoneans where they just march into the country next door and convert them (Edom, is what I had in mind) . But Christian and Muslim missionizing is infesting the world worse than Buddelia.
Don't you like the fragrance and the wild life (butterflies)?
Some Missionaries (JWs) used to come to my house and spend some time with me. In the end they stopped coming to see me when they realized that I knew more about Jesus than they initially thought I knew.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
The danger (to remind you, if you forgot) is that getting a reluctant convert (say all the family converted, but one) who no longer followed his believed religion but practised (perforce) one he didn't believe, might put him in danger of hellfire. That (if so) would apply to Muslims and Christian alike, Missionaries or converts.
God understands a person's intentions.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Not to Buddhists or Hindus. Adherents of those "Small" (idolatrous) religions are all going to burn anyway. Plus Atheists as kindling of course.
That's off topic unless they too are in Abrahamic religion.
This is where it would have been useful for you to have read the the Torah, the Gospels and the Qur'an to understand the difference between laws and acts of devotion. I have said that there are no new laws in the Qur'an just acts of devotion may be different. Going back to the fruit analogy, all sons were to bring fruit from the shop but one is told to bring oranges, the other pears and the third grapes. If they act as they are commanded, they have obeyed the law of bringing fruit. One may pray in a synagogue, church or mosque but what must be done is praying. You may fast 10 days or 30 days but what is to be done is fasting. The main thing to do is obeying God and it subsequently leads to helping the humanity in the way one may not know initially.
O crafty one, That was NOT the original analogy. They were told to bring Fruit but they all brought different fruit. That you said was not obeying his command. Ok. The conversation has moved on a bit, and we can now assume that each one brought what they were told to bring. So each in his own way is obeying the command (and the rules in their revelation". Should the last command to bring dates be taken on by the Jew and Christian? You view now seems to be that they don't need to.
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I am not here to expect others to share my views. If they do, they would be as peaceful as I am. If they do anything wrong they will bear the consequences. That doesn't mean that the whole religion is bad.
No, but you are here to share your views, as am I. So when you get asked about them we may expect a (hopefully straight) answer.
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I too have a religion. You have seen that my religion has not damned other religions despite the intense coaxing. Why? Because my business is what I do and not what others do that does not have any adverse effect on me.
I am indeed making a distinction between you views and those of other muslims. It is your views I am asking here, and only mentioning in passing that they doi not seem to be representative.
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You must have misunderstood me.
You are lost in between "muslim" and "Muslim".
Rules and laws must be positive for the earthly life (including the human life). That's how I see my religion, its rules and its laws. I don't see God in need of any of our good deeds; we are. Obeying rules and laws lead us to do good deeds.
I don't think I did misunderstand you. When I asked about the need to observe rules as in Holy books and the associated religions, you said that good deeds were more important. And here you are putting words in my mouth again, not I into yours. I never said that a god needs our good deeds, but it requires our good deeds (as that god sees it) because that is what it commanded. Now if the commands differ and they do different deeds - conflicting deeds - who is to say which is good and which is bad?
You will say "Allah. Nobody else". Very well, so that implied or reinforces the idea that not only are they just as good as the other, but there is no point in converting, unless one really wants to (for themselves, not the god). And if you agree with that (or indeed, if you don't) that explains where you stand as regards the question that arises out of the OP. They may all be submission, but are they the right kind? And if not, does it matter?
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Allah has declared how even so-called Muslims will be judged:
[7.8] And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful;
[7.9] And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they did injustice to the verses.
[101.1] The terrible calamity!
[101.2] What is the terrible calamity!
[101.3] And what will make you comprehend what the terrible calamity is?
[101.4] The day on which people shall be as scattered moths,
[101.5] And the mountains shall be as loosened wool.
[101.6] Then as for him whose measure of good deeds is heavy,
[101.7] He shall live a pleasant life.
[101.8] And as for him whose measure of good deeds is light,
[101.9] His abode shall be the abyss.
Ok. Not overly helpful, which is why I ask you to explain how you understand them. You seem to have said that good deeds in accordance with the commands of the verses is what is important. I'll proceed on that basis. And you appear to have either contradicted yourself or have played a semantic trick
In your prior post, "The Qur'an does not say that those who are muslims will go to hell. " But now you quote a text that seems to say that they do. Ok Abyss may not be the same as hell, as Paradise may not be the same as heaven. But the point is that Muslims also have to be judged on their doings just as Jews and Christians.
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So you do not know the difference between those who practice an Abrahamic religion and those who are muslims. I have done suficient spoon-feeding. You will have to mug up on the Qur'an if you are to challenge me on the Qur'an.
This is an obvious attempt to escape. At least you appear to have now seen the fix you are in and the 'I'm not here to educate you; go and read some books' is a very familiar attempt to wriggle out of it by Christian apologists. The fix is not so much whether there is a difference between the Muslim and other Abrahamic religions or not (you can say whichever you think, it doesn't get you out of it) but if there is no difference, there is no need for Jews or Christians to bother with the Quran, and if there is, does it matter? Will Jews and Christians get some unpleasant come -back from Allah because of it? If yes, the Submission to God (translates as Islam) is irrelevant. They have to bring the Dates - the Quranic fruit. They have to convert or burn. But if they won't if they sincerely practice their own religion, doing "Good Deeds" as per the instruction in their revelation, they need have no fear (your scripture) on the last Day. Therefore again they do not need to bother with the Quran. I believe you saw this before, but do you see it now?
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I have been backing up my views with the verses of the Qur'an. You can't do anything against that unless you read those verses and try to understand them.
You have been throwing scripture at me rather than explain yourself. That tactic isn't very new either.
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I like giving them taste of their own medicine. Then they cry foul.
You cried foul first and claimed I was misrepresenting you. I don't think I was and even so, it was at most misunderstanding you - I can't read your mind - and asking for your explanations, which is what discussion should be about.
You however - as pointed out above - have denied saying things that I NEVER accused you of saying. That is putting words in my mouth.
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If you say what was the point of the Qur'an being revealed, why would you not say, using the same logic, that the earlier revelations shouldn't have been given. Are you trying to seek help from Mystic?
Ah yes. That is something else I never said. The point of the Quran is known only to God. Indeed, the point of any revelation - Torah, Bhaghavad Gita, Tao te Ching - why should only the abrahamic books be "Given' by God? - In terms of salvation, The Torah gave the Law, for behaviour. The Gospels gave a salvation from sin. What is the purpose of the Quran? I don't see one (1).
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Double benefit is believing both revelations. One is good enough but two is even better. I believe all of them.
That's an interesting idea, but then why is believing and following the later revelation of the Book of Mormon not going to increase your 'benefit' still further? Because you deny it? Well, Christians have double benefit believing the Torah, but rejecting the Quran. Since you appear to say that this will cause them no problems on the last day, they are as well off as you Muslims. The idea of collecting as many religions as you can to get brownie points sounds frankly hilarious.
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Bringing three different types of fruit as commanded is still bringing only the FRUIT.
Yes, you explained that in your view, the good deeds are related to the 'fruit' one brings. That isn't what I believe at all, but you do, and I'm going on that basis. As I said, if the religions differ, the deeds differ, unless you say they are essentially the same and nobody who observed those rules (does good deeds) need fear. This is what I have been asking you for some time.
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This is where you do not understand that the religion from Allah is the same but acts of devotion may be different to sort out the false ones from the sincere ones.
That's beside the point. People who disobey their particular commands are of course doing 'bad deeds' according to their religion. The point is, if the commands differ, then good deeds in one may be bad deeds in the other. Or not. Which is it?
You can say again that you can't be bothered to explain, but that will look like you couldn't.
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Thank you. I have tried hard to learn the language. I am still learning.
Well, I'd say you learned very well.
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Don't you like the fragrance and the wild life (butterflies)?
I do indeed. I also like Incense and Saffron robes, but when they start coming into the house and being a nuisance, I get rid of them.
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Some Missionaries (JWs) used to come to my house and spend some time with me. In the end they stopped coming to see me when they realized that I knew more about Jesus than they initially thought I knew.
Same here. And about Evolution (they are Creationists, of course). Oh, and they do deny all the Other Abrahamic revelations.
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God understands a person's intentions.
And does that supersede disobeying the commands in Their particular religion, if their intentions were for the best? I don't think so. I think God expects his commands to be obeyed. Abraham will explain it to you if you ask him.
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That's off topic unless they too are in Abrahamic religion.
It is; but it's ok as a side -note, if it does not derail. The Mods are very understanding.
(1) I have looked at several, but they end up by either making the Quran irrelevant, all the revelations irrelevant, other than the laws of Hamurabbi, perhaps, or just the work of men to suit themselves. My money's on that one.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-18-2017 at 04:13 PM..
I appreciate them. Mystic will have to give his own views.
I love the songs. Always have. But they were not Muslim. The entire premise of Khalif's attempts to pretend that Muslims are anything but followers of the Quran and Mohammed is just preposterous. It seems that Muslims will do just about anything to promote their religion over all others.
There are several possible explanations. One is that we have totally misunderstood and the Muslim religion regards the other Abrahamic religions as perfectly fine and meeting with Allah's approval, even if not everything agrees. Like you, I find that hard to swallow.
Another is that this is Khalif's personal take on the religion of the Q'uran, which I would not consider the view of the majority Muslims . Thus I am digging to get a clear statement of belief, one way or the other.
Another possibility is of course that the Muslim religion is being wrapped up in conciliatory terms which bear no resemblance to its' actual dogma or attitude towards all other religions, and that it is ok to lie to Infidels.
Khalif seems like a nice chap, so I am inclined to doubt that, but you will have noticed a particular reluctance to come out and make definite comprehensible statements. He appears sometimes to change sides, but that may really be because I am misunderstanding. If so, I want to have it explained clearly so I can understand. And thus we all can.
There are several possible explanations. One is that we have totally misunderstood and the Muslim religion regards the other Abrahamic religions as perfectly fine and meeting with Allah's approval, even if not everything agrees. Like you, I find that hard to swallow.
Another is that this is Khalif's personal take on the religion of the Q'uran, which I would not consider the view of the majority Muslims . Thus I am digging to get a clear statement of belief, one way or the other.
Another possibility is of course that the Muslim religion is being wrapped up in conciliatory terms which bear no resemblance to its' actual dogma or attitude towards all other religions, and that it is ok to lie to Infidels.
Khalif seems like a nice chap, so I am inclined to doubt that, but you will have noticed a particular reluctance to come out and make definite comprehensible statements. He appears sometimes to change sides, but that may really be because I am misunderstanding. If so, I want to have it explained clearly so I can understand. And thus we all can.
I lean toward the bold, Arq. Taqiyya is real and it is practiced devoutly by many. That certainly places an undue burden on those who would convince us of their good intentions or that of their religion. Given the fanatical and radical terrorists who proclaim the religion, they must cross a high bar.
I lean toward the bold, Arq. Taqiyya is real and it is practiced devoutly by many. That certainly places an undue burden on those who would convince us of their good intentions or that of their religion. Given the fanatical and radical terrorists who proclaim the religion, they must cross a high bar.
What exactly is Taqiyya and how is it practiced?
Can you provide some good details and a few examples?
You already ignored the "Love God" question I asked earlier. Would that be a classical example of Taqiyya?
Last edited by GoCardinals; 09-19-2017 at 01:09 AM..
Can you provide some good details and a few examples?
You already ignored the "Love God" question I asked earlier. Would that be a classical example of Taqiyya?
Your turn Mystic, old mate, My fingers are numb from squeezing pips.
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That's the nub. Of course we don't get Jewish missionaries. They have to tread warily. It isn't like under the Hasmoneans where they just march into the country next door and convert them (Edom, is what I had in mind) . But Christian and Muslim missionizing is infesting the world worse than Buddelia.
That was NOT the original analogy. They were told to bring Fruit but they all brought different fruit. That you said was not obeying his command. Ok. The conversation has moved on a bit, and we can now assume that each one brought what they were told to bring. So each in his own way is obeying the command (and the rules in their revelation". Should the last command to bring dates be taken on by the Jew and Christian? You view now seems to be that they don't need to. 
