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Right. So is the person that believes in the Jesus that is God the same as the one that believes he's just a man? Do you believe both fulfill that criteria? Or does what we believe about Jesus important?
From the Atheist point of view - they are both Christians. One says they are identical God and Jesus. The other says that one is God and other only is filled with God. If that is enough to say that one is a true Christian and the other not, then a pox on both your houses.
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Right. If one does not actually believe in the essentials, they are not Christians. But that's not the case of my pastor and the other pastor I had coffee with. The problem I have though, is that you seem to think that everyone that believes in some whackadoo belief system can dictate to the rest of us what is and isn't a Christian. Despite not believing the most basic things Jesus said.
But isn't that just what you are doing? Atheists say that anyone who believes in Jesus as a saviour of those who believe in him is a Christian. It's only other Christians who say the others are not on doctrinal matters, not basics. The most whackdoodle damners of the others as Non -Christians seems to be your lot.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-25-2018 at 05:38 PM..
The problem with that whole blather is that even "good" christians can't agree with what christianity teachers. If they did, there wouldn't be hundreds of different denominations.
It's actualy more than "hundreds". Most estimates by reputable authorities concur that there are at least 33,000 variants of schools-of-thought ("denominations", if you will) that place Jesus Christ at the center of their thinking up to this point in time. And it doesn't appear to bother this purported "god" that they constantly proclaim exists that so many of the masses of humanity throughout the ages and up to the present time are in divergent directions regarding thinking about theological concerns and subscriptions (i.e., many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of other religions / denominations / schools-of-thought-- Chrisitian and non-Christian --that deviate to varying degrees from one another).
This purported "god", if it exists at all, appears to be wholly indifferent to this fact and seemingly perfectly content to have the lot of humanity carry on "as is" throughout the entire historical existence of homo sapiens (and, if they were, to whatever degree, capable of being sentient thinking creatures as well like homo sapiens are, the same can likely be said of Neanderthals, Cro Magnons, Home Erectuses, et al). And hence, as an outcome of this historical state-of-affairs, so many of the masses of humanity are or must be non-conforming or non-allegiant to what is promoted to be the "correct" narrative and set-of-rules to subscribe to and abide in (whatever, if anything, that happens to be). And, in the end, (according to the proclaimed narrative of these "Chrisitian" promoters), this purported "god" is to judge us for being misguided and non-abiding to what is said to be the correct thoughts and rules and edicts . . . yet what does this purported "god" do to definitively rectify however many of the lot of humanity being so misguided and hence non-abiding as this? Apparently, absolutely nothing.
Some so-called "god"! It holds ALL the answers (the correct information) and yet won't definitlvely share it with ALL of us to get us ALL on the very same page!!! A mere mortal and very very limited being like me can do so much much much much much much much much better than that! And so can you (all or nearly all of you).
It's actualy more than "hundreds". Most estimates by reputable authorities concur that there are at least 33,000 variants of schools-of-thought ("denominations", if you will) that place Jesus Christ at the center of their thinking up to this point in time. And it doesn't appear to bother this purported "god" that they constantly proclaim exists that so many of the masses of humanity throughout the ages and up to the present time are in divergent directions regarding thinking about theological concerns and subscriptions (i.e., many tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of other religions / denominations / schools-of-thought-- Chrisitian and non-Christian --that deviate to varying degrees from one another).
This purported "god", if it exists at all, appears to be either wholly indifferent to this fact or else perfectly content to have the lot of humanity carry on "as is" throughout the entire historical existence of homo sapiens (and, if they were, to whatever degree, capable of being sentient thinking creatures as well like homo sapiens are, the same can likely be said of Neanderthals, Cro Magnons, Home Erectuses, et al). And hence, as an outcome of this historical state-of-affairs, so many of the masses of humanity are or must be non-conforming or non-allegiant to what is promoted to be the "correct" narrative and set-of-rules to subscribe to and abide in (whatever, if anything, that happens to be). And, in the end, (according to the proclaimed narrative of these "Chrisitian" promoters), this purported "god" is to judge us for being misguided and non-abiding to what is said to be the correct thoughts and rules and edicts . . . yet what does this purported "god" do to definitively rectify however many of the lot of humanity being so misguided and hence non-abiding as this? Apparently, absolutely nothing. :dubious
Some so-called "god"! It holds ALL the answers (the correct information) and yet won't definitlvely share it with ALL of us to get us ALL on the vfry same page!!! A mere mortal and very very limited being like me can do so much much much much much much much much better than that! And so can you (all or nearly all of you).
So how would the world look like if God operated by YOUR wishes and by YOUR commands? And what would be the purpose of life *IF* your wishes were to come true as in the last paragraph above?
So how would the world look like if God operated by YOUR wishes and by YOUR commands? And what would be the purpose of life *IF* your wishes were to come true as in the last paragraph above?
God would have a fair premise to judge us . . . for we would ALL be informed of what the absolute correct narrative and expectations are and THEN, if any of us still definitively choose to blow them off anyway, then it can't be said to be because we've been misguided/misinformed about what the absolute complete and correct narrative and expectations are.
Did you really need for me to figure that out FOR you??? In your mind, these should be termed as "MY" wishes and "MY" commands? These should be thought of by all as "unreasonable" expectations? I would assume that it is in the minds of ALL sentient beings that they be treated on the basis of justness and fairness. So you yourself DON'T wish to be assured of justness and fairness? So you yourself are perfectly content to risk being judged as "wrong" based upon you not having the complete and correct information always having been at your avail and that information coming straight from the ultimate source itself (rather than from the proclamations of other mere mortals like you and I who are limited and prone to being fallible)?
God would have a fair premise to judge us . . . for we would ALL be informed of what the absolute correct narrative and expectations are and THEN, if any of us still definitively choose to blow them off anyway, then it can't be said to be because we've been misguided/misinformed about what the absolute complete and correct narrative and expectations are.
Did you really need for me to figure that out FOR you??? In your mind, these should be termed as "MY" wishes and "MY" commands? These should be thought of by all as "unreasonable" expectations? I would assume that it is in the minds of ALL sentient beings that they be treated on the basis of justness and fairness. So you yourself DON'T wish to be assured of justness and fairness? So you yourself are perfectly content to risk being judged as "wrong" based upon you not having the complete and correct information always having been at your avail and that information coming straight from the ultimate source itself (rather than from the proclamations of other mere mortals like you and I who are limited and prone to being fallible)?
Think about it.
If God would have made it ALL known to all people and if he had shown heaven and hell to everyone THEN there would be hardly anyone doing anything wrong. And the concept of FAITH in God had been thrown out of the window. And consequently we had no choice but to obey God which would simply made our lives meaningless.
Everyone would have been born, had met God, seen heaven and hell, and obeyed God all his life , die and go to heaven.
Now repeat this process 7 BILLION times on all people on earth. What’s the point? Why would God not just create us and entered directly into paradise ?
Unfortunately that’s not how it’s all setup. The premise is that the belief in the existence of God is based on FAITH which one can form by using his intelligence, resources and time.
You are given intelligence, resources and a certain time limit. You are free to use those to do your research AND make a choice. And in the end, you will be responsible for the choices you made.
You want to know what’s the true and correct path to God, then go out, do your research and use your intelligence. But no, you want it given to you in a platter. What’s the point of intelligence, and the ability to research, been given to you then?
Think about it.
If God would have made it ALL known to all people and if he had shown heaven and hell to everyone THEN there would be hardly anyone doing anything wrong. And the concept of FAITH in God had been thrown out of the window. And consequently we had no choice but to obey God which would simply made our lives meaningless.
Everyone would have been born, had met God, seen heaven and hell, and obeyed God all his life , die and go to heaven.
Now repeat this process 7 BILLION times on all people on earth. What’s the point? Why would God not just create us and entered directly into paradise ?
Unfortunately that’s not how it’s all setup. The best premise is that the belief in the existence of God is based on FAITH which one can form by using his intelligence, resources and time.
You are given intelligence, resources and a certain time limit. You are free to use those to do your research AND make a choice. And in the end, you will be responsible for the choices you made.
But neither you nor I nor anyone else can know with certitude that we are "right" (and, for that matter, wholly "right") by what we have been exposed to versus not exposed to. Do you not understand that it is not, in the end, "faith" in GOD that you are investing in but rather "faith " in the proclamations of your myriad fellow humans of times past (and of the present) who have presented you/us with myriad information (and much of it at odds with one another)??? You don't, in fact, epistemologically knowwith certitude that you have the right set of information (and neither do any of us epistemologically know this either). Why not get it straight from the source itself (except that this purported "source" doesn't apparently care to do so . . . or it might be the case that "the source" doesn't, in fact, exist)? The concept of faith SHOULD be "thrown out the window", as you phrased it. Any proclamation of something being a fact is either true or not true or partially true and then partially not true. Period. Why the need for "faith" (i.e., making-believe) from this purported God's perspective or on from the stance or perspective of each of us individually as mere mortals? The term "faith" serves as a shorthand way of saying, in essence, "making-believe". Why the need to "make-believe" (i.e., to convince ourselves, in each of our individual minds, that we are correct)? Why is that a virtue? It isn't. Period.
I am of the view that not only do you (and those who think like you) have a failed epistemology but also have a faiiled morality (i.e., if you actually think that this is a moral and just way of operating on the part of a so-called "god"). And you're not going to convince me otherwise.
But neither you nor I nor anyone else can know with certitude that we are "right" (and, for that matter, wholly "right") by what we have been exposed to versus not exposed to. Do you not understand that it is not, in the end, "faith" in GOD that you are investing in but rather "faith " in the proclamations of your myriad fellow humans of times past (and of the present) who have presented you/us with myriad information (and much of it at odds with one another)??? You don't, in fact, epistemologically knowwith certitude that you have the right set of information (and neither do any of us epistemologically know this either). Why not get it straight from the source itself (except that this purported "source" doesn't apparently care to do so . . . or it might be the case that "the source" doesn't, in fact, exist)? The concept of faith SHOULD be "thrown out the window", as you phrased it. Any proclamation of something being a fact is either true or not true or partially true and then partially not true. Period. Why the need for "faith" (i.e., making-believe) from this purported God's perspective or on from the stance or perspective of each of us individually as mere mortals? The term "faith" serves as a shorthand way of saying, in essence, "making-believe". Why the need to "make-believe" (i.e., to convince ourselves, in each of our individual minds, that we are correct)? Why is that a virtue? It isn't. Period.
I am of the view that not only do you (and those who think like you) have a failed epistemology but also have a faiiled morality (i.e., if you actually think that this is a moral and just way of operating on the part of a so-called "god"). And you're not going to convince me otherwise.
Things in nature are based on probability.
Yes, I ageee - we do not KNOW.
And we do not know because we don’t have an evidence of God that is unanimously agreed and accepted by 7 Billion people on earth, because we cannot define an evidence that we believe we would accept because we don’t have way to VALIDATE that evidence because 7 BILLION people cannot and will not agree as to what God is?
What do you think? Is cow a God? Yes? How?
No? Why not?
So, IF AND ONLY IF, we really want to find the true path to God then we can only try.
And that effort of finding God is NOT based on demanding the evidence but by trying to identify the signs of God.
These are the two very first and very basic questions that are intertwined.
What is the probability that God exist?
And what is the probability that the entire universe and everything in it came together all by itself?
If and only if, these questions intrigue you and you ponder upon them, then try to find your own answers by using your own intelligence and by using your own logic.
And you will notice that you won’t know for sure and you won’t have an evidence either, no matter what conclusion you arrive at.
Guess what will you be left with to base your conclusion upon (regardless of what it is)
Yes, indeed. FAITH.
If these questions DONT intrigue and you believe that God does not exist then you still don’t know with 100% surety because you don’t have an evidence that God does not exist.
In this game of probabilities, you will left, yet again with FAITH that God does not exist.
Think about it.
If God would have made it ALL known to all people and if he had shown heaven and hell to everyone THEN there would be hardly anyone doing anything wrong. And the concept of FAITH in God had been thrown out of the window. And consequently we had no choice but to obey God which would simply made our lives meaningless.
Everyone would have been born, had met God, seen heaven and hell, and obeyed God all his life , die and go to heaven.
Now repeat this process 7 BILLION times on all people on earth. What’s the point? Why would God not just create us and entered directly into paradise ?
Unfortunately that’s not how it’s all setup. The premise is that the belief in the existence of God is based on FAITH which one can form by using his intelligence, resources and time.
You are given intelligence, resources and a certain time limit. You are free to use those to do your research AND make a choice. And in the end, you will be responsible for the choices you made.
You want to know what’s the true and correct path to God, then go out, do your research and use your intelligence. But no, you want it given to you in a platter. What’s the point of intelligence, and the ability to research, been given to you then?
That's the point. In an afterlife. when we (supposedly) Know what's what for those who go to heaven, what's the point? If you say there doesn't have to be one - they just live happily ever after, why isn't that equally valid here in this life, even if we all Know there's a god, or indeed, if we don't? The 'Faith' vs. 'Free will' argument was always anon -starter.
And we do not know because we don’t have an evidence of God that is unanimously agreed and accepted by 7 Billion people on earth, because we cannot define an evidence that we believe we would accept because we don’t have way to VALIDATE that evidence because 7 BILLION people cannot and will not agree as to what God is?
What do you think? Is cow a God? Yes? How?
No? Why not?
So, IF AND ONLY IF, we really want to find the true path to God then we can only try.
And that effort of finding God is NOT based on demanding the evidence but by trying to identify the signs of God.
These are the two very first and very basic questions that are intertwined.
What is the probability that God exist?
And what is the probability that the entire universe and everything in it came together all by itself?
If and only if, these questions intrigue you and you ponder upon them, then try to find your own answers by using your own intelligence and by using your own logic.
And you will notice that you won’t know for sure and you won’t have an evidence either, no matter what conclusion you arrive at.
Guess what will you be left with to base your conclusion upon (regardless of what it is)
Yes, indeed. FAITH.
If these questions DONT intrigue and you believe that God does not exist then you still don’t know with 100% surety because you don’t have an evidence that God does not exist.
In this game of probabilities, you will left, yet again with FAITH that God does not exist.
No, you contradict yourself, or appear to, because you are very much thinking along the right lines - the implications of agnosticism; not Knowing.
We can only go on the evidence and that is what all these debates are about. The effects of Faith is to accept or reject the evidence to make it fit what is believed. The effect of belief (rational belief) is fit the belief to the evidence, on the basis of probability.
You may have seen some recent posts on the probability of Goddunnit vs. 'something from nothing'. It is by no means coming down on the goddunnit side. But what you appear to be doing in your post is assuming that Goddunnit is the more probable hypothesis and then
talking about 'identifying the signs of God. This translates to me as looking for anything that appears to fit your preferences and ignoring anything that doesn't.
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Atheists say that anyone who believes in Jesus as a saviour of those who believe in him is a Christian. It's only other Christians who say the others are not on doctrinal matters, not basics. The most whackdoodle damners of the others as Non -Christians seems to be your lot.
And, in the end, (according to the proclaimed narrative of these "Chrisitian" promoters), this purported "god" is to judge us for being misguided and non-abiding to what is said to be the correct thoughts and rules and edicts . . . yet what does this purported "god" do to definitively rectify however many of the lot of humanity being so misguided and hence non-abiding as this? Apparently, absolutely nothing. 
A mere mortal and very very limited being like me can do so much much much much much much much much better than that! And so can you (all or nearly all of you).
