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Motivations are not the issue. it doesn't matter whether the refusal to put Adam and Steve on the royal icing is because of an Ick reaction to Gay sex or a cool assessment of scripture. What is done as regards providing a service to one customer and refusing that service to another, without a legally acceptable reason is what lays them open to legal action.
And that didn't happen. The bakery was happy to provide cakes to the gay couple. No issue there. They simply refused to participate in a same sex wedding. Different issue. No one was discriminated against, except perhaps the bakers, who have had their business destroyed by gay activists.
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If the muslim owned the store, as the law stands (as It should) they can stock and sell what they like (within the law). If they refuse to handle pork goods, that is their choice. If they work in a store that does sell pork goods, legally they should have accepted that they would have to handle the stuff. As i say, reasonable concession can be made - I not long since bought some bacon and did it so the muslim lady behind the counter, (who looked at the stuff like it was a pack of dog crap) didn't have to handle it. I could have obliged her to handle it, and could have brought a court case if she refused. The gay couple could have gone somewhere else. They decided to make an issue of it. One might not approve of that, but the fact remains, they have the law on their side. You don't.
Glad you brought up the Muslim store. This is actually fairly relevant. Similar to the case of if you went to a Halal butcher and demanded bacon because, well...they serve beef, so it's the same things.....right? No. It isn't. This isn't the case of a clerk behind the counter refusing to handle a cake for a same sex wedding, it's that they simply don't serve that niche in the market, and don't carry a product for that.
And that didn't happen. The bakery was happy to provide cakes to the gay couple. No issue there. They simply refused to participate in a same sex wedding. Different issue. No one was discriminated against, except perhaps the bakers, who have had their business destroyed by gay activists.
I hardly think that providing a cake is the equivalent of participating.
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Glad you brought up the Muslim store. This is actually fairly relevant. Similar to the case of if you went to a Halal butcher and demanded bacon because, well...they serve beef, so it's the same things.....right? No. It isn't. This isn't the case of a clerk behind the counter refusing to handle a cake for a same sex wedding, it's that they simply don't serve that niche in the market, and don't carry a product for that.
I think they are very different. The couple requested a wedding cake from a company that sells wedding cakes.
A halal butcher sells beef, probably lamb, but not pork. Different product line. If you really want to make a bakery:butcher analogy, it would be like going to a bread bakery and demanding chocolate chip cookies. Sure, theoretically they could make them, but it isn’t their product line, they don’t advertise them, and they have no pricing structure associated.
I hardly think that providing a cake is the equivalent of participating.
You have that belief, and the bakers have their's. Their conviction is that it is. Just like we would not require the Halal butcher to sell pork products or cater a pig roast, we should not expect a Christian baker to make a special cake they would not otherwise make.
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I think they are very different. The couple requested a wedding cake from a company that sells wedding cakes.
And if they had come into the baker and simply asked for a cake, I'm sure it would have been provided. But they wanted one done in a way that the baker could not do.
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A halal butcher sells beef, probably lamb, but not pork. Different product line. If you really want to make a bakery:butcher analogy, it would be like going to a bread bakery and demanding chocolate chip cookies. Sure, theoretically they could make them, but it isn’t their product line, they don’t advertise them, and they have no pricing structure associated.
But it's all meat....and if the butcher sells meat...what's the big deal?
Maybe it has something to do with the type of meat being sold.
And that didn't happen. The bakery was happy to provide cakes to the gay couple. No issue there. They simply refused to participate in a same sex wedding. Different issue. No one was discriminated against, except perhaps the bakers, who have had their business destroyed by gay activists.
So far as I recall, they weren't invited to a wedding, they asked to provide a cake and they refused. Buit seem to have missed the point. The law apparently said they were in the wrong. You may give reasons why you disagree with that view, but that doesn't alter the fact that the law found against the baker.
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Glad you brought up the Muslim store. This is actually fairly relevant. Similar to the case of if you went to a Halal butcher and demanded bacon because, well...they serve beef, so it's the same things.....right? No. It isn't. This isn't the case of a clerk behind the counter refusing to handle a cake for a same sex wedding, it's that they simply don't serve that niche in the market, and don't carry a product for that.
Don't be absurd. I can walk into a muslim store and say they should stock bacon, but if they don't stock it - and they don't have to give reasons why they don't - then they can't sell it to me. If the baker says he is no longer going to sell cakes, he doesn't have to say why - even if it is to ensure none of them get used at same -sex weddings. But just as a muslim store owner can't refuse to sel me meat because it's Halal and I'm not Muslim, so a person who sells cakes can't refuse to sell one to a gay couple. Which is what he did. It makes no difference that he had sold them cakes before, just as if I'd bought halal meat before (in fact my sister bought mutton in a muslim store and it was for sure Halal, and there wasn't even a question).
Refusing a service provided to anyone else is wrong under the Law and religious scruples are not an excuse in law.
You can argue as much as you like, but if you don't get that Law repealed or that particular precedent overturned, you are in the wrong according to law. And all your arguments are so much hot air.
You have that belief, and the bakers have their's. Their conviction is that it is. Just like we would not require the Halal butcher to sell pork products or cater a pig roast, we should not expect a Christian baker to make a special cake they would not otherwise make.
You become increasingly absurd. It is not a 'Special' cake. It is a wedding -cake. That is what they sell. It requires nothing more than would be required for any other wedding cake. The service was refused - and you know this - because the wedding was a same -sex wedding. And religious scruples is the reason to refuse the service on that sole basis, and the law says that is wrong.
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And if they had come into the baker and simply asked for a cake, I'm sure it would have been provided. But they wanted one done in a way that the baker could not do.
Indeed I gather that because the baker knew that it was a wedding cake for a gay wedding he refused that service. Of course we both know why,, and I can understand the scruples, but in Law his religious views are no legal reason to discriminate against Gay people.
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But it's all meat....and if the butcher sells meat...what's the big deal?
Maybe it has something to do with the type of meat being sold.
Maybe it is. But if they don't offer that service, they don't. As I pointed out, of the baker doesn't do wedding cakes - because of some prejudice against marriage - the law does not force jim to provide them. But if he does, he cannot pick and chose whom he sells them to, because of religious scruples.
That is what it is from the first, and you are well aware of it, too, no matter how much you try to make it look like something else.
Do you want other examples? If I ran a bookshop and I was asked to obtain a creationist book, I would be obliged by law to get it unless I had good reason why I was unable to. Not believing the stuff in no excuse. Just as if a Christian owned bookshop could not refuse to order me 'The God delusion'.
But a Christian bookshop does not carry All Lines. You can't demand that they stock atheist or indeed Muslim literature. In fact the analogy of the gay Cake would be them refusing to sell me a Bible because I had told them I was an atheist, and and they didn't want to 'participate' in an atheist using the Bible to debunk Christianity. They would be out on a legal limb there.
You are doing no more than playing the Bias -accusation card. With 'I'll pray for you" insolence slapped on, with the added craftiness of making it look like it was Nice. Youy are not really doing your case any good but just putting on a rather familiar exhibition of impudent fingers -in -the -ears denial.
You know transmoniker, if it's prayer you're requesting, just so you know, when I pray for someone, I pray for God's Holy Spirit in that person, though that person might have no clue whether there be any Holy Spirit, much less in them.
So then now I pray for God's Holy Spirit in you through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, in the hope that you will know what such joy true fellowship in Christ might bring to refresh your soul. The only requirement...believe it.
Try not to complain too much. Have a blessed Sabbath day.
You know transmoniker, if it's prayer you're requesting, just so you know, when I pray for someone, I pray for God's Holy Spirit in that person, though that person might have no clue whether there be any Holy Spirit, much less in them.
So then now I pray for God's Holy Spirit in you through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, in the hope that you will know what such joy true fellowship in Christ might bring to refresh your soul. The only requirement...believe it.
Try not to complain too much. Have a blessed Sabbath day.
It is interesting that in the same sentence you mention belief, you have the word requirement. It sounds like a demand.
Glad you brought up the Muslim store. This is actually fairly relevant. Similar to the case of if you went to a Halal butcher and demanded bacon because, well...they serve beef, so it's the same things.....right? No. It isn't. This isn't the case of a clerk behind the counter refusing to handle a cake for a same sex wedding, it's that they simply don't serve that niche in the market, and don't carry a product for that.
You don't appear to understand the concept of analogies. Of maybe you just want to 'touch a nerve' by saying ridiculous things, so you can gloat with a smiley - because some people prefer to amuse themselves in such ways over actually saying substantive things.
A wedding photographer sells the service of photographing weddings. A halal butcher sells halal meat. Asking a wedding photographer to sell the service that photographer offers is not analogous to asking a butcher to sell a product that the butcher does not stock.
You know this.
You're pretending otherwise because that's what you do. You have no actual argument that makes any sense, plus you get your jollies saying absurd things.
You would be spot-on if the analogy was that the Halal butcher refused to sell his Halal meat to, say, a Christian. And Muslims have been required, under penalty of losing their licenses to provide services such as transporting customers with alcohol and service dogs when they drive taxi cabs (in Minnesota, so years ago). But then, since everyone would have agree that, yes, such Muslims would be (were) in violation of the law, it wouldn't serve your purpose.
You know transmoniker, if it's prayer you're requesting, just so you know, when I pray for someone, I pray for God's Holy Spirit in that person, though that person might have no clue whether there be any Holy Spirit, much less in them.
So then now I pray for God's Holy Spirit in you through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, in the hope that you will know what such joy true fellowship in Christ might bring to refresh your soul. The only requirement...believe it.
Try not to complain too much. Have a blessed Sabbath day.
Thanks for sharing, but I'm not requesting payers from anyone.
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Originally Posted by elyn02
It is interesting that in the same sentence you mention belief, you have the word requirement. It sounds like a demand.
It isn't. It is an exhortation to sink to my knees and brainwash myself. It is a stock last chance to convert the victim when all the arguments have been debunked. Stock in trade of the evangelist.
It's interesting to note the technique our Llittlewitted friend used, leaping on my remark about the "I'll pray for you' type of Parthian shot as an excuse to pull the last -ditch 'Pray for Jesus to enter your heart' gimmick my way of a tiptoe dot -leap on 'pray for you' twisted into "oh - you are asking for prayers?"
Once you know these tricks, one can see how clumsy, telegraphed, routine, maniipulative and generally pretty loathsome they are.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-16-2017 at 05:53 AM..
You don't appear to understand the concept of analogies. Of maybe you just want to 'touch a nerve' by saying ridiculous things, so you can gloat with a smiley - because some people prefer to amuse themselves in such ways over actually saying substantive things.
A wedding photographer sells the service of photographing weddings. A halal butcher sells halal meat. Asking a wedding photographer to sell the service that photographer offers is not analogous to asking a butcher to sell a product that the butcher does not stock.
You know this.
You're pretending otherwise because that's what you do. You have no actual argument that makes any sense, plus you get your jollies saying absurd things.
You would be spot-on if the analogy was that the Halal butcher refused to sell his Halal meat to, say, a Christian. And Muslims have been required, under penalty of losing their licenses to provide services such as transporting customers with alcohol and service dogs when they drive taxi cabs (in Minnesota, so years ago). But then, since everyone would have agree that, yes, such Muslims would be (were) in violation of the law, it wouldn't serve your purpose.
So, your 'comparison'? Total fail.
Thasnk you. Particularly for mentioning where compromise wasn't feasible, and Taxi drivers were slammed, quite correctly, for refusing to transport passengers carrying booze. They either do their job without discrimination on religious grounds or they find another job. That's the way it works al across the board.
I'm sorry (on Topic -grounds) that the gay Cake came up again, but I'm not sorry that it was discussed, as I think this has really put the debate to bed, and I thank BF for doing his very best in the debate, and not even Jeffbase could have done better
And thanks to the Mods for seeing the value of the derail and letting it go on. Back to embarrassment for atheists.
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and letting it go on. Back to embarrassment for atheists.