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I get it. What you don't get is that the baker in question does not offer wedding cakes for same sex weddings. He just doesn't carry them. It's not what he does. And it's a violation of his 1st Amendment rights to force him to do so.
Let’s try a different analogy.
I am an electrician. A church calls me and asks if I can do some work on their sanctuary lighting. I have done lots of lighting work for stages and commercial spaces, but never for a church. I am also a satanist. I your view, can I refuse the church business because I do not support Christianity?
Does it matter that I am the only licensed electrician in the small town, and the guys in the nearest city would be considerably more expensive because they demand city wages and trip charges?
Or
I am a silversmith. I make goblets, and have done so for family silver settings, stage productions, weddings and the like. Sometimes I engrave them, other times I don’t, depending on the customers request. I am an atheist, and I despise religion. The local Pentecostal church wants to purchase a goblet from my inventory for their communion services. Should I be able to refuse their request? Does it change if they want me to engrave something?
It was already explained what is the difference between not providing a service and providing a service but refusing in particular circumstances that break a law on discrimination, and religious conviction is not an excuse. Examples were already given, and if we must tighten up the analogy, the Christian bookshop is happy to sell me Bibles even if they know I am an atheist. But if they balk because they hear that i am going to use it in a debate with a Christian, they would be in the wrong. At least if I understand the ruling correctly. The Halal butcher example was clear enough, and I believe we already touched on the idea of some kind of compromise, like Icing the cake but letting someone else put the two dudes on.
Evidently no such compromise was reached, and the law found against the baker. It is rather disturbing, Fundy, old mate, that we are hearing the Ghost nation problem again "We only support government and law when they agree with our religious views. If they don't, then we support an America that fits in with our views. And if the Atheists, Muslims, Gays, Mormons, Jews, Catholics and Buddhists don't like it, they should leave".
Perhaps some Township can be provided as a place where they can run the council and teach their kids whatever they like. After the gates have been shut and locked every night.
I am an electrician. A church calls me and asks if I can do some work on their sanctuary lighting. I have done lots of lighting work for stages and commercial spaces, but never for a church. I am also a satanist. I your view, can I refuse the church business because I do not support Christianity?
To be honest, I'm not sure I'd want you to do it if you don't want to be there. I certainly would not drive by several other electricians to get to you just to see you put out of business.
If you specialize in lighting that is specific to one type of establishment, and a church would not be that...then sure, you'd be justified.
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Does it matter that I am the only licensed electrician in the small town, and the guys in the nearest city would be considerably more expensive because they demand city wages and trip charges?
Nope. Not if your business is specialized in other areas besides churches.
Quote:
Or
I am a silversmith. I make goblets, and have done so for family silver settings, stage productions, weddings and the like. Sometimes I engrave them, other times I don’t, depending on the customers request. I am an atheist, and I despise religion. The local Pentecostal church wants to purchase a goblet from my inventory for their communion services. Should I be able to refuse their request? Does it change if they want me to engrave something?
You should be able to refuse that IF you make goblets for a purpose other than churches. But again...I can't imagine a church going out of their way to run you out of business.
You have that belief, and the bakers have their's. Their conviction is that it is. Just like we would not require the Halal butcher to sell pork products or cater a pig roast, we should not expect a Christian baker to make a special cake they would not otherwise make.
And if they had come into the baker and simply asked for a cake, I'm sure it would have been provided. But they wanted one done in a way that the baker could not do.
But it's all meat....and if the butcher sells meat...what's the big deal?
Maybe it has something to do with the type of meat being sold.
Jewish butchers don't deal in pork, nobody could sue them for not dealing in pork, not a good parallel.
And this baker in question does not deal in wedding cakes for same-sex weddings.
I May have taken the side of the baker if there are other bakers in a town, I think a lot of it should be relative to whether there are choices or no choices.
But trying to make a parallel between that baker and a Jewish butcher is just plain silly. I always believed that anyone should have the right to refuse service, but again, I think it should be relative to what sort of business it is, and the choices people have. If it was the only baker, dude should have to pay a fine and the fine should not go to the person who was denied service. It should be relative how much the owner is worth, and the people being denied service should not be getting paid.
But if IT IS THE LAW, and you break the law, you are the one in sin.
I May have taken the side of the baker if there are other bakers in a town, I think a lot of it should be relative to whether there are choices or no choices.
But trying to make a parallel between that baker and a Jewish butcher is just plain silly. I always believed that anyone should have the right to refuse service, but again, I think it should be relative to what sort of business it is, and the choices people have. If it was the only baker, dude should have to pay a fine and the fine should not go to the person who was denied service. It should be relative how much the owner is worth, and the people being denied service should not be getting paid.
But if IT IS THE LAW, and you break the law, you are the one in sin.
I might add to this, that I may have taken the Baker's side, but had I been the baker, there would be no question what I would have done. I would have made the cake. Not making the cake only showed hate, and the reason I may have stood with the baker is that I just believe every mom and pop store should have the right to refuse service.
Jewish butchers don't deal in pork, nobody could sue them for not dealing in pork, not a good parallel.
By the logic that says this baker must bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, it's only a matter of time before a pork producer sues a Jewish or Halal butcher to force them to take their hogs and slaughter and butcher them for paying customers.
By the logic that says this baker must bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, it's only a matter of time before a pork producer sues a Jewish or Halal butcher to force them to take their hogs and slaughter and butcher them for paying customers.
Yet if one's RELIGION is the litmus test for refusing "service," why cannot a Physician refuse to provide service to a gay person, or a nurse refuse to give a flu shot, or an airline pilot refuse to fly gays to Hawaii to get married?
And if you claim "that's different" then are we going to draw up pages and pages of lists indicating what is "proper" under your god rule, or are we going to treat everyone the way we ourselves wish to be treated?
Such a proposal leads EXACTLY to that kind of discrimination.
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... damn