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Does anyone else think that religious belief is another way of conforming to the traditional beliefs of the culture?
Not necessarily.
Martin Luther obviously had religious beliefs, and they started the Protestant reformation and the 30 Years War. Catholic priests have religious belief, but pedophilia is not a traditional belief in our culture.
Religious beliefs change themselves. The concept of the rapture is relatively new, as is the majority religious acceptance of interracial marriage. Both have changed, one with an effort to change the culture, one following the culture.
I could come up with dozens of additional examples where religious belief and culture are only loosely correlated, if at all. I think that it is more likely that some people are inherently conservative, others are progressive. Sometimes these people are religious, other times they are not.
Martin Luther obviously had religious beliefs, and they started the Protestant reformation and the 30 Years War. Catholic priests have religious belief, but pedophilia is not a traditional belief in our culture.
Religious beliefs change themselves. The concept of the rapture is relatively new, as is the majority religious acceptance of interracial marriage. Both have changed, one with an effort to change the culture, one following the culture.
I could come up with dozens of additional examples where religious belief and culture are only loosely correlated, if at all. I think that it is more likely that some people are inherently conservative, others are progressive. Sometimes these people are religious, other times they are not.
Sometimes people are pressured to conform to something that goes against what they believe on the inside. So they might not even be aware of their own core values.
I used to hear Christians say all the time that when they converted, their politics changed also at the same time.
I believe that Paul was essentially describing a political change with his road to Damascus vision.
Personally I feel like this is usually the case.
If you are trying to combine this post and the initial one, and infer that religious change is bsed on political or even social views, I think you are wrong.
Religion and politics are connected, but in my experience religion leads, politics follow. As my religious beliefs shifted, I moved from strong social conservative, to straight up libertarian, to finally what I hope is a more nuanced view of the world, which skews socially liberal and more anti corporate than previously. In none of these cases did a religious change arise from politics. Religious change altered the way I allowed myself to frame the world, which then led to questioning my political and cultural assumptions.
Likewise, and political change from religious conversion depends on what you are converting from and to. A socially conservative unbeliever may change very little if they become a Southern Baptist, but becoming a UU might radically change their outlook and thus their politics.
Sometimes people are pressured to conform to something that goes against what they believe on the inside. So they might not even be aware of their own core values.
How is that relevant to your OP?
Let’s take my Martin Luther example. If he was pressured into something that was different from his core values, that means he succumbed to outside pressure to change despite his religious/core values. So much for religion being a conservative anchor.
On the other hand, if you mean that exterior religion pressured him, and he was able to reach his core values and remain true in order to effect change, once again religion has failed as a conservative anchor.
Taking another view at this, not being aware of their own core values is a weird concept, a little like ‘if a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody to hear it, does it make a sound?’ If you have a core value, but you don’t know you have it, and therefore don’t act on it, is it really a core value?
That happens so often. So often that the Believers , Right wing Chrstians and anti -atheists are convinced that 'Liberlism' is some 'Aytheist' doctrine. Time and again I hear of a right -wing reactard who deconverts and goes totally Liberal, Gay -lovin' Democrat -voter. It isn't the case here - Christians can be either lefty -liberal or Rightwing Rigid. Still Christian. Only seems to be this socio -political sidestep with religion in the US. Funny though I don't seem able to recall an example of a real atheist convert (as distinct from the Not Interested majority who don't Think about it and so are fair game for an evangelical conversion -pack) who dropped the liberal view and because an anti -gay ranter. There may be some - and of course quite a few who CLAIM they did that Lee Strobel for example seem to keep claiming to have been a questioning atheists who was talked around by the undeniable Proof of Christianity, but to quote Raffa yet again, that looks like "Bolluchs".
What religious belief and atheism might REALLY mean.
Reflecting on NoCapo's thoughtful recounting of his own journey to atheism, I am struck by the role that those early beliefs play in any subsequent conceptualizations of God. I had no such early indoctrination to overcome so when I encountered God in deep meditation I had no prior conceptions of God to extinguish. My atheism was immediately extinguished but I had nothing but my experience to form an understanding of God. The nature of the consciousness I encountered is clear and my search for an explanation for my intellect also included a search for a matching conceptualization. I found that in the descriptions in 1st Cor 13, Galatians 5, and the Sermon on the Mount in the Christian narrative minus the OT nonsense.
Let’s take my Martin Luther example. If he was pressured into something that was different from his core values, that means he succumbed to outside pressure to change despite his religious/core values. So much for religion being a conservative anchor.
On the other hand, if you mean that exterior religion pressured him, and he was able to reach his core values and remain true in order to effect change, once again religion has failed as a conservative anchor.
Taking another view at this, not being aware of their own core values is a weird concept, a little like ‘if a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody to hear it, does it make a sound?’ If you have a core value, but you don’t know you have it, and therefore don’t act on it, is it really a core value?
My point is that there are probably a lot of people who are pressured (by religion) into conforming to something that goes against their core values, and they aren't even aware of it, because they have never known what their values really were.
My point is that there are probably a lot of people who are pressured (by religion) into conforming to something that goes against their core values, and they aren't even aware of it, because they have never known what their values really were.
Still makes no sense. If you don’t know what your values are, how can they be your values?
You think that someone can't be brainwashed? Please explain that.
Of course people can. However, that is a forced, external pressure to change values. You are proposing something that makes no sense.
As I understand it, you are proposing that somebody holds a value, but doesn’t know they do. Then they are convinced through some mechanism to act contrary to their previously existing, but unknown value.
How can a value even exist if it isn’t known? are you saying that I hold conservative values, but because I don’t know I have conservative values, I act in a progressive-liberal manner because I have been brainwashed? Maybe my core value is that of a Scientologist, but since that value has been hidden from me I am really a brainwashed atheist?
Values are a product of my intellect. If I don’t know I have it, it really isn’t my value.
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Lee Strobel for example seem to keep claiming to have been a questioning atheists who was talked around by the undeniable Proof of Christianity, but to quote Raffa yet again, that looks like "Bolluchs".
What religious belief and atheism might REALLY mean.
