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Old 02-17-2020, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
1,329 posts, read 832,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The Documentary Hypothesis did not arise from anti-Semitism.

The first person known to raise the issue is Jewish scholar ibn Ezra.

To suggest that a Jew is an anti-Semite is absurd.

You ignore that, because you cannot accept Truth & Reality and it doesn't fit with your false narrative.

Other Jewish rabbinical scholars propounded the Documentary Hypothesis, and I named those Rabbis by name, but you cannot accept Truth & Reality, because it doesn't fit your false narrative.

To suggest that Jewish rabbinical scholars are anti-Semites is totally preposterous.

Modern proponents of the Documentary Hypothesis include world renown scholars Frank Moore Cross and Richard Elliot Friedman.

I don't know whether either is Jewish or not and don't care, but you will falsely label them anti-Semites simply because you don't like what they have to say, which doesn't fit with your false narrative.

Israel Finklestein and Neil Silberman also support the Documentary Hypothesis.

You can falsely label Israel Finklestein -- the distinguished Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University -- an anti-Semite if you want, but that will only make you look more ridiculous than you already are.

I'm not as informed about Jewish scholarship of the Torah, but I'm only familiar with the version that Julius Wellhausen formulated in the 18th century, and it is this discovery that informs much of the debate in Christianity. A discover that has been supported by AI linguistic analysis of the Tanakh in Israel, BTW.


Most Reformed and Conservative Jews, the majority of Jews in the world, accept higher criticism of their Bible.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:24 AM
 
9,690 posts, read 10,023,019 times
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Then there was Abraham who` whole family came and lived in Ur of the Chaldees which would be from the land of modern Iraq today, where God sent Abraham into the land of Canaanites and the Jebusites of Salem as the land of Ur of the Chaldees had wicked rulers .............. Then there was Jesus Christ whose father Joseph was of the descendants of Abraham but never had a seed of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Mother Mary also never had a seed into the birth of Jesus Christ, as Jesus was placed into Mary by a creation from God as Jesus was the only-begotten son of God and His Judah tribe family was His spiritual for faith family
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:31 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,043,151 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Your posts are the basis.



Yes, that's the whole point. The E writer lived in a different time and place than the other authors, has different concerns, a different world view, a different theology and his text was combined later with the J text.

The E writer is focused on Ephraim and the tribe of Ephraim and persons of that tribe in addition to X-Moses and Samuel, and he identifies events and places in the North, because, well, that's where he lived.

It's not Quantum Physics.



In addition to Yahweh elohim, it is the P writer who uses the Akkadian god El Shaddai, who was Lord Ninurta in Sumer.

El Shaddai's temple was in the city of Ur where Terah was chief priest, and since the priesthood is an hereditary position, Abram (Aramaic: Abraham) was a priest-in-training.

The P writer develops the deity from elohim to El Shaddai to a Canaanite god named Yahweh who was part of the Ugarit pantheon and whose wife was Asherah.

King Solomon built a temple to Asherah for Yahweh. It was either Hezekiah or his grandson Josiah who tore it down (along with three other temples to three other gods).

The process is called syncretism: "Your god and my god are the same even though they have different names."

That's how El Shaddai becomes Yahweh.



I just assumed you were smart enough to know that usage changes at Exodus 6:3.

Apparently not.

Forgive me for the assumption.



There were major changes to the texts and more than 100s of times and none of it is circular.

Texts were written on clay tablets in cuneiform. We know that because we have evidence, which you cannot refute:

Tablet #1
1:1 God created the heavens and the earth.
2:4 When they were created

Tablet #2
5:2 When they were created -- catch-line from #1
6:10 Shem, Ham, and Japheth

Tablet #3
10:1 Shem, Ham, and Japheth -- catch-line from #2
10:32 After the Flood

Tablet #4
11:10 After the Flood -- catch-line from #3
11:26 Abram, Nahor, and Haran

Tablet #5
11:27 Abram, Nahor, and Haran -- catch-line from #4
25:12 Abraham’s son

Tablet #6
25:19 Abraham’s son -- catch-line from #5
36:1 Who is Edom

Tablet #7
36:8 Who is Edom -- catch-line from #6
36:9 Father Edom

Tablet #8
36:43 Father Edom -- catch-line from #7

Within generations and across generations and over centuries the texts were altered.

There were omissions, sometimes intentional and sometimes accidental. From the Dead Sea Scrolls we know that accidental omissions occur.

Sometimes things are added to the text.

Sometimes the text changed, like X-Moses. "Moses" is not his real name.

His real name was Amenmoses, or Ankhmoses, or Tutmoses or Ptahmoses or something like that and Jeremiah and Hilkiah being Yahweh freaks deleted the name of the Egyptian deity that prefixed "emanated from."

Get it?

The word "m-s-s" is not Hebrew/Canaanite, it's Egyptian and it's always prefixed with the name of an Egyptian deity.

You do claim the Hebrews were in Egypt, right?

The word elohim, which means gods plural is another example.

The word elohim does not mean "god" in the singular. That's called an anachronism.

An anachronism is when you take something in the present and try to crow-bar it into the past.

Sorry, but Judaism is not a monotheistic religion. The Hebrews were polytheists before becoming henotheists and ultimately monolatrists.

You have read Deuteronomy, haven't you?

Okay, then what did Jeremiah and Hilkiah write when they forged the texts?

Yahweh is the national god of the Hebrews and not of other nations, because other nations have other gods.

That's called monolatry, not monotheism.

Nothing in Genesis before Abram/Abraham is an original Hebrew work. The Hebrews simply copied those stories from older civilizations and changed them.

The creation of man was originally Sumerian. The Hebrews just copied the texts. Over time, as the Hebrews shifted from polytheism to henotheism the text was changed from the gods Enki, Ningishiddza and Ninhursag creating man to the plural elohim created man.

That's how that works.



What, you don't know? Exodus 12:40 is one reference.

I won't even get into the fuzzy Hebrew math.



It is fake.



It's not conjecture. It's Israeli scholars. I go to Hebrew Union University several times a year to hear scholars discuss the ancient Near East, biblical archaeology, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew textual criticism and the like.

I've attended several symposiums and lectures at Hebrew Union University discussing Hebrew as the Ugarit dialect of Aramaic without the case endings (you know, the nominative, accusative, dative, genitive, vocative, locative and instrumental).



That doesn't alter the fact that the J writer has an agenda, namely to justify Judah's supremacy over Ephraim.



Did you read the text?



That's what the J writer claims and the J writer has an agenda which is to justify the supremacy of Judah.

I'm guessing you haven't read what Israeli archaeologists have discovered.



Israeli scholars. They even wrote a book about it. I'm surprised you haven't read it.



That's what I said. The J writer refers to the deity as Yahweh and his heroes are Aaron and Judah and his only concern is the Kingdom of Judah and doing everything to justify the supremacy of Judah.

How can you not see that?

The E writer says it was Reuben who saved Joseph at Genesis 37:21-22.

The J writer says it was Judah who saved Joseph at Genesis 37:26-27.

Even Stevie Wonder can see that.



Um, it was common to marry your sister.

That sister is, of course, a half-sister.

Abram married his half-sister Serai (Sarah). Their father was Terah but they had different mothers.



In the Mitzvah. Only clean persons and their descendants can be priests. Unclean persons and their descendants cannot.

The P writer had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and was obsessed with "clean" and "unclean" things.



So, you admit Yahweh has no compassion.



It's all there in the text.

Jeremiah and Hilkiah forged Deuteronomy, because they were control freaks and wanted total control over all facets of the religion.

All they needed was some sucker like Josiah to buy into their nonsense.

The whole theme of Deuteronomy is centralization of religion: one temple; one altar; one place to sacrifice.

It didn't bother Yahweh when Abram set up an altar anywhere or sacrificed anywhere.

Isaac and Jacob did the same. There were temples and altars everywhere before the Judges, during the era of the Judges, and when Saul reigned, and David and Solomon and everyone else right up to King Josiah.

And, what, now Yahweh throws a hissy fit and only wants one temple, one altar and one place to sacrifice?

Yeah, right.
Miriam’s husband was Kalev...

Aaron’s wife was Elisheba...

Moishe’s wife was Zipporah...
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Old 02-20-2020, 09:27 AM
 
79 posts, read 53,961 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcarbuilder View Post
It`s interesting that non-believers spend so much time and energy to convince us that we have no God. Why not just ignore us believers and live your perfect temporary life. When you breathe your last breathe proclaim there is no God. That`s when the courage of your non-beliefs will show Him you are not needed.
Well, not all 'non-believers' care if any one person or another believes in a God or gods. I don't. I do avoid the cheer-leading Christians who seem to feel they are on a mission to save me and I find the belief in multiple gods to be interesting but too fanciful for my practical mind. I have always said, what ever belief or practice which leads you to be a good neighbor is good for ALL of us on earth. As a non-believer, or atheist or secular humanist (pick one) I don't much worry what happens to believers after death. Good for you if you get a reward for good behavior I only worry about how well you treat your fellow man here on earth, because this is the only time period I am interested in. I strive to follow the Golden Rule and hope others will too.

By the way, my mother never called out to God during the 4 days of her dying. What she actually was thinking, I do not know. What she thought and what others think or say, is God's business only, if there is a God, and nobody's business is there is not.
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Old 02-20-2020, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,840 posts, read 24,347,720 times
Reputation: 32967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Miriam’s husband was Kalev...

Aaron’s wife was Elisheba...

Moishe’s wife was Zipporah...
How does that affect your everyday life?
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,177,123 times
Reputation: 21743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Miriam’s husband was Kalev...

Aaron’s wife was Elisheba...

Moishe’s wife was Zipporah...
I meant to say sister, not wife. Aaron and Miriam were brother and sister. All those names are Egyptian.

You can be disingenuous and call him "Moishe" but you can't alter the reality that the texts render the name m-s-s, which is Egyptian, not Hebrew.

It doesn't alter the reality that the Yahweh fanatics Jeremiah and Hilkiah changed the text.

There aren't any Egyptian parents dumb enough to name their kid "emanated from."

That would be like having the name "son."

You have Johnson, Williamson and Rameses. That might have been X-Moses' real name.

Just as Jeremiah and Hilkiah might find the names "John" and "William" offensive and an affront to Yahweh, they would have Ra to be offensive and an affront to Yahweh, so they just struck it from the texts.

Johnson... Williamson...Rameses and you're left with "son," "son" and m-s-s.

And then the stupid claim is, "We can't find any references to m-s-s in Egypt."

Well, duh, no Egyptian parents would be stupid enough to name their kid "emanated from."

To find an historical reference, you must first know what X-Moses' name really was before Jeremiah and Hilkiah hacked it.


I suppose if X-Moses' real name had been Merneptah -- beloved of Ptah -- then he would be known as m-r-n or Merne and I would call him Merne-X because Jeremiah and Hilkiah would have hacked off Ptah's name.



But, getting back to the OP's point, you had a group of people living in Sheckem (Abram's descendants) a second group of Caananites living in Israel and they are joined from a 3rd group from the Sinai.

That would be X-Moses and Joshua and their group.

Joshua unites those three groups to become what you call Hebrews and rams the Sinai god Yahweh down everyone's throats.

What would impress me most is if people actually understood what they read.

Judges 5:4-5 When you, Lord, went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water. The mountains quaked before the Lord, the One of Sinai, before the Lord, the God of Israel.

Where is Seir?

Where is Edom?

Um, yeah, the Sinai.

The Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites all lived there and were later supplanted by the Midianites.

If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why Yahweh errs and says Jethro is a Midianite and then later calls him a Moabite.

Assuming, of course, the bible is god's infallible word and god-inspired.

Then again, if it was just a mere mortal writing his own thoughts, you can see why he might be confused, because people and places change over time.

Oh, yeah, and this:

The mountains quaked before the Lord, the One of Sinai, before the Lord, the God of Israel.

Where does Yahweh come from?

Yeah, the Sinai/Transjordan Region.

It's not Culinary Arts, but it is Common Sense.
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:14 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,043,151 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I meant to say sister, not wife. Aaron and Miriam were brother and sister. All those names are Egyptian.

You can be disingenuous and call him "Moishe" but you can't alter the reality that the texts render the name m-s-s, which is Egyptian, not Hebrew.

It doesn't alter the reality that the Yahweh fanatics Jeremiah and Hilkiah changed the text.

There aren't any Egyptian parents dumb enough to name their kid "emanated from."

That would be like having the name "son."

You have Johnson, Williamson and Rameses. That might have been X-Moses' real name.

Just as Jeremiah and Hilkiah might find the names "John" and "William" offensive and an affront to Yahweh, they would have Ra to be offensive and an affront to Yahweh, so they just struck it from the texts.

Johnson... Williamson...Rameses and you're left with "son," "son" and m-s-s.

And then the stupid claim is, "We can't find any references to m-s-s in Egypt."

Well, duh, no Egyptian parents would be stupid enough to name their kid "emanated from."

To find an historical reference, you must first know what X-Moses' name really was before Jeremiah and Hilkiah hacked it.


I suppose if X-Moses' real name had been Merneptah -- beloved of Ptah -- then he would be known as m-r-n or Merne and I would call him Merne-X because Jeremiah and Hilkiah would have hacked off Ptah's name.



But, getting back to the OP's point, you had a group of people living in Sheckem (Abram's descendants) a second group of Caananites living in Israel and they are joined from a 3rd group from the Sinai.

That would be X-Moses and Joshua and their group.

Joshua unites those three groups to become what you call Hebrews and rams the Sinai god Yahweh down everyone's throats.

What would impress me most is if people actually understood what they read.

Judges 5:4-5 When you, Lord, went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water. The mountains quaked before the Lord, the One of Sinai, before the Lord, the God of Israel.

Where is Seir?

Where is Edom?

Um, yeah, the Sinai.

The Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites all lived there and were later supplanted by the Midianites.

If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why Yahweh errs and says Jethro is a Midianite and then later calls him a Moabite.

Assuming, of course, the bible is god's infallible word and god-inspired.

Then again, if it was just a mere mortal writing his own thoughts, you can see why he might be confused, because people and places change over time.

Oh, yeah, and this:

The mountains quaked before the Lord, the One of Sinai, before the Lord, the God of Israel.

Where does Yahweh come from?

Yeah, the Sinai/Transjordan Region.

It's not Culinary Arts, but it is Common Sense.
As for Moishe, it is the Hebrew rendering...As for his Egyptian name, well, duh, it was the Pharaoh’s daughter who found him and I doubt that she would have given him a Hebrew name but rather an Egyptian name...
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:19 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,043,151 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
How does that affect your everyday life?
It doesn’t...
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