Asked, Not Answered

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by mordant

I would say that authoritarian Christianity is constitutionally incapable, as a group, of self-reflection and can only triple down on it assertions. That is why they are descending into conspiracy theories and outright fascism. In fact The Federalist published just this week an essay stating that conservatism is dead -- there is nothing left to conserve -- and advocating for outright radicalism and fascism -- for example arresting parents for child abuse if they take their children to see a drag queen (their example, not mine). This isn't just a political thing, it is full of religiously-motivated thinking about what is moral and what is not. The authoritarian religionists can no longer get along without authoritarian politics. They are essentially one in the same anymore.

I've been warning people about this since before Obama. I've spread my warnings here since the first day I began posting. To be honest, I kept hoping I would be wrong. Sure, it would make me look like a "Chicken Little" spreading baseless fear. But call it intuition - I really feared the spread of fascistic, authoritarian religion.

But I knew I had been predicting accurately the moment all the fundamentalists and evangelicals stood up to be counted with the likes of Donald Trump - a man whose lifestyle represented nearly everything the good in Christianity abhored. Even cheating on his wife during his campaign - with a porn star of all people - could not shake their cult-like loyalty. In any other election anywhere for any office at any time in American history - such antics as telling people that women love having their privates groped would've spelled the end of that man's political aspirations. Having an affair with a porn star should have outraged the devout Christians - but no. Nothing. No reaction.

In fact, they even supported Roy Moore, a pedophile pervert who got banned from malls because he was stalking teenage girls while he was in his 30s. Granted, he lost the election, but just barely. It just goes to show everyone that they are not Christians. They can call themselves that. They might believe in the whole Christ story. But they are not Christians. They have sold their soul to the devil, so to speak, all for power. These Christians hoped that by backing a fascistic dictator wannabe, they could get all of their wants and desires fulfilled like some little kid on Christmas morning. And so far, the first present they unwrapped was the abolition of Roe v. Wade. Trust me when I say - it isn't over.

As the saying goes: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." And now ... here we are. And as usual. No one listened.

Originally Posted by mordant

Not far from the mark at all, although I'd characterize it less as doubt as an understanding that their beliefs only work if not questioned / thought about too much, so questions or critiques are ruining their chosen and deliberately blinkered experience of their faith. Doubt is the most basic of sins for a reason.

One of the concepts that I really hammered on when I posted here a lot was how religion was inherently fascistic, autocratic, and dictatorial. It's no wonder then how humanity never got a vote in deciding what kind of world god had in store for us. Instead, we had to put up with whatever god decided. And as the Bible droned on, it was just a massive collection of rules - most of which were downright nonsense - the rest were already common knowledge (like not killing and stealing and suchlike). And the punishment for breaking those rules could be anything from god murdering one person - or murdering every first born child of an entire empire - to genociding the entire planet, animals, trees and all. Because gods LOVE throwing wild temper tantrums because it's a way for the population to see just what this god can do to you if you don't obey.

I always thought it was utterly ridiculous back in the day when we had real debates, believers would claim this is a Christian nation and our laws and society are based on Judao-Christian principles. No no, I'd tell them, they are based on Greco-Roman principles. I'd ask them - tell me where in the Bible does it talk anywhere about democracy and casting votes? Oh right, it doesn't. And never mind that nearly the *entire* Bill of Rights contradicts the Bible. How can our rights be "god-given" when they contravene nearly everything god says? Ridiculous.

Now ... it's far far worse with truly assinine conspiracy theories thrown into the mix as well as a ridiculous cult of personality around Donald Trump. Demon satellites now ... and here is an exact verbatim quote of one of these so-called Christians about Trump back when Muller was investigating the Russian connection:

"If Jesus Christ climbed down off his cross and told me Donald Trump was colluding with the Russians, I would have to go to the president for the truth."

No kidding. I dunno ... I would consider that blasphemy, wouldn't you? Someone is destined for a nice crisp afterlife. But it goes to show you that their politics and their religion are essentially one and the same with many people replacing Christ with Trump - which is ... well, I was going to say "inconceivable" but it's really not. I never gave the fungelicals a high rating for their morality. Just goes to show you that they have no principles - and never have. Why would I expect honest and forthright behavior from these people? They are as brainwashed as any North Korean ever was - with Trump their Dear Leader, seen now as a god on earth.

Originally Posted by mordant

Increasingly I don't think even that free pass for liberal believers will last much longer. I have long felt I had a lot of common cause with liberal Christians, and I think that fundagelicals are starting to figure out that these liberal Christians are traitors from their perspective.

Violence is only a matter of time. And I couldn't be in a worse place. Not just the town I live in, but the entire region where I live is filled pretty much exclusively with Trump supporters and die-hard fundy Christians. In fact our district representative hasn't had a Democrat challenger in over 2 decades. It's either her ... or you throw away your vote. You can't drive a mile before seeing Trump signs in people's yard - including signs that actually say, "F**K Biden!" Funny how I'm not allowed to say the F word on a forum filled with adults, but people can use that word on signs along the road where any number of kids pass by it - why they are allowed to have such signs only shows you just how loyal and fanatical the people here are for that loser.

Meanwhile, here I am, a die-hard liberal progressive Democrat and no-holds-barred atheist and anti-theist. I couldn't be more diametrically opposite people here - and to make matters worse, I'm not lilly white with straw-colored hair and Nordic blue eyes - I'm diametrically opposite of that, too. Oh yeah, and I'm not a native-born Amerian. Strike three, I guess. I already have a small arsenal of guns - but if things really hit the fan, I'm going back the UK.

Unfortunately, I've been right far more often than I've been wrong - and that isn't me tooting my own horn. It's more of a warning. Almost 3 centuries of the great American experiment, all of it ruined by a failed reality show host with an 8th grade vocabulary. Is this really god's plan? Really?

Originally Posted by mordant

If they are writing editorials suggesting that "subjecting" one's own children to unapproved influences is inherently wrong regardless of one's position on (a)theism, then they will be on witch hunts that will not be limited to atheists and non-Christian theists. Though I suppose that extra little bit of overt rejection of Jesus will always be particularly odious to them.

Like I said - it's coming. Especially if the GOP start losing elections. The violence will escalate. Like you said - witch hunts will start. Political assassinations. Internment camps for political prisoners. Lynchings. The rule of law is already failing - and now the radicals want to be allowed to carry guns to the polling stations so they can intimidate voters. They said openly on the news that they plan to take pictures of people, their cars, everything to intimidate people into voting GOP. It's like Alabama in the 60s all over again.

People like Trump should be serving multiple life sentences for the crimes he's committed - and I'm not just talking about stealing those classified documents. For instance, there are almost 2,000 pending lawsuits against Trump for refusing to pay people who worked for him. He even stiffed three little girls who performed at his inauguration. When you're heartless enough to refuse to pay 3 girls, not a one over 12 years old, a few thousand dollars - when you're a damn billionaire - it should show everyone what kind of loser he is. But no ... let's pick the worst Republican ever elected and worship him. Yah, what a keen idea.

Knowing, of course, that as a regular person, if I went to the gas station, got $20 worth of gas, and drove off without paying, the police would be at my house within 24 hours and I would be in handcuffs. Trump can stiff people for literally millions of dollars - and nothing happens to him. That is an abject failure of the rule of law. In fact, it's downright medieval - one law for the peasants, and another, much more forgiving law for the aristocracy. The GOP have learned now that they can pretty much do and say what they want and there will be no consequences. At all.

Originally Posted by mordant

I am fortunate that I no longer have minor children and that my extended family pretty much colors inside the lines at least in terms of our public lives. We will probably not be among the first to be targeted. But a lot of sincere Christians are about to be very surprised to run afoul of the budding thought police, I think.

Yeah, I'm not so fortunate. Not that I've made unnecessary waves here, mind you, but you can only hold your tongue for so long. It's like being a Jew in Nazi Germany having to listen to people bash Jews with a smile on your face. But eventually, at times, I can't stand it anymore. If you think I can hold my own here, you should see me in real life when I get going. My neighbor across the street and I do not get along very well. He's a big bully, likes to deliberately clean his guns outside on the porch just so I can see them. I really want to get out of here.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Yeah, I'm not so fortunate. Not that I've made unnecessary waves here, mind you, but you can only hold your tongue for so long. It's like being a Jew in Nazi Germany having to listen to people bash Jews with a smile on your face. But eventually, at times, I can't stand it anymore. If you think I can hold my own here, you should see me in real life when I get going. My neighbor across the street and I do not get along very well. He's a big bully, likes to deliberately clean his guns outside on the porch just so I can see them. I really want to get out of here.

I hear you. Even here, two blocks off the Cornell campus, it isn't hard to imagine the people in the next couple of towns coming into the 'hood and taking out their frustrations on us. All it requires is for the fabric of civil society to unravel just enough -- and we're getting closer all the time.

We have the means to move anywhere in the world but the problem now is that the rest of the world has its own problems, and the devil you know may be better than the one you don't know. Even the Scandanvians have their own problems with fascists -- Finland's ruling coalition basically is at least proto-fascist at this point. The Italians just swore in new leadership from Mussolini's old political party.

We are living out the failure of the liberal order to maintain the living standards / hopes / dreams / aspirations of the middle class. You speak of the UK as a fallback ... yet they are imploding in spectacular fashion, economically and socially. By spring, they may be the first western democracy to become a 3rd world backwater, at this rate.

Add to that the culture shock factor (something less of a concern for you given your life experiences and relative youth) and our age, and we've just decided to keep our heads down and make do. The only reason we might catch the "last flight out" to someplace else is for the sake of our son, but at that point we'd be refugees in a dying world anyway.

[LearnMe]

Originally Posted by mordant

I hear you. Even here, two blocks off the Cornell campus, it isn't hard to imagine the people in the next couple of towns coming into the 'hood and taking out their frustrations on us. All it requires is for the fabric of civil society to unravel just enough -- and we're getting closer all the time.

We have the means to move anywhere in the world but the problem now is that the rest of the world has its own problems, and the devil you know may be better than the one you don't know. Even the Scandanvians have their own problems with fascists -- Finland's ruling coalition basically is at least proto-fascist at this point. The Italians just swore in new leadership from Mussolini's old political party.

We are living out the failure of the liberal order to maintain the living standards / hopes / dreams / aspirations of the middle class. You speak of the UK as a fallback ... yet they are imploding in spectacular fashion, economically and socially. By spring, they may be the first western democracy to become a 3rd world backwater, at this rate.

Add to that the culture shock factor (something less of a concern for you given your life experiences and relative youth) and our age, and we've just decided to keep our heads down and make do. The only reason we might catch the "last flight out" to someplace else is for the sake of our son, but at that point we'd be refugees in a dying world anyway.

These are some rather dim views being expressed here, and not that I don't share concerns about some of these right-winging shifts that are "unraveling some of the fabric of civil society," these shifts are not really anything new. My father, now deceased, often used to note that the older generation always feels things are going to hell in a hand basket. Pining for "the good old days." Sometimes I wonder if there isn't something to that as I feel myself growing less and less patient with some of these recent developments, but I try to "look at the bright side." The UK just made a young person of color Prime Minister for the first time for example...

[mordant]

Originally Posted by LearnMe

These are some rather dim views being expressed here, and not that I don't share concerns about some of these right-winging shifts that are "unraveling some of the fabric of civil society," these shifts are not really anything new. My father, now deceased, often used to note that the older generation always feels things are going to hell in a hand basket. Pining for "the good old days." Sometimes I wonder if there isn't something to that as I feel myself growing less and less patient with some of these recent developments, but I try to "look at the bright side." The UK just made a young person of color Prime Minister for the first time for example...

Believe it or not, I manage to keep my spirits up.

It is true that every oldster since the dawn of man has bemoaned the ruination of everything they care about. I have that priced in I think but multiple extrinsic shocks of unprecedented scale is not really an exaggeration in describing the world situation at present. Complex systems tend to self heal, but they have tipping points, too.

Time alone will tell, of course. I am enjoying life still at this point, so there's that ... but I don't have a good answer for my stepson's sense that the world is much more difficult place to thrive than it was for me.

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by Northsouth

Thanks LearnMe, I have taken care of the hacking. And then I developed an upper respiratory infection. I am so addle-brained and exhausted from all this I think it made me sick. Sorry you had troubles too, what a creepy and violating feeling. This criminal was a girl I'm pretty sure, don't ask me how I know. Well, apparently she even knew the name of my OLD internet too because she used it to attach to my account, just added the number 20000. It is very bizarre and hard to explain so I won't.

Yes there are so many bad apples out there, what the hell is this world coming to? I would go back and reply to all the responses to my posts but I see no point since the thread has basically gone to the thread graveyard.

Thanks to all who participated.

Looks like a good time to close this thread. The topic has been exhausted.