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A single innocent person who was killed by the state morally invalidates the law that a state can take life. The prosecutor, judge, and jury should go to jail for life. Or be killed according to the law.
The evidence is presented, if the evidence was intentionally deceptive, a lie and that perjury led to the death of another, then possibly yes.
Does your logic apply in reverse?
PS... I have no issue with chemical castration of rapists and pedophiles... or a millstone.
Last edited by Dave_n_Tenn; 03-13-2024 at 02:15 PM..
What does the state do if a thief commits a crime again? Do we steal from him?
What about rape?
You have still not solved the question of who gets killed if the victim of state sponsored murder turns out to be innocent. That alone should be the reason to ban capital punishment, leaving aside all morality.
State sponsored murder is exactly what the death penalty and capital punishment is.
And of course we’re not always talking about the crime being a murder here, and talking of thieves- weren’t the other 2 criminals crucified on the same day as Jesus Christ also thieves?
Does such a barbaric punishment really befit the crime here?
But regardless of whether the crime was petty or serious, the state has no right here.
And of course, as previously pointed out, we’ve also got the victims of genocides here - killed by the state for absolutely no valid reasons.
State sponsored murder is exactly what the death penalty and capital punishment is.
And of course we’re not always talking about the crime being a murder here, and talking of thieves- weren’t the other 2 criminals crucified on the same day as Jesus Christ also thieves?
Does such a barbaric punishment really befit the crime here?
But regardless of whether the crime was petty or serious, the state has no right here.
And of course, as previously pointed out, we’ve also got the victims of genocides here - killed by the state for absolutely no valid reasons.
And isn't it interesting that some of these same posters who are pro-death penalty, despite their religion, are probably some of the same people who believe their government doesn't treat THEM well.
The evidence is presented, if the evidence was intentionally deceptive, a lie and that perjury led to the death of another, [then possibly yes.]
Does your logic apply in reverse?
PS... I have no issue with chemical castration of rapists and pedophiles... or a millstone.
I am not sure what you mean by applying the logic in reverse. Please clarify.
If life for life is how we conduct criminal justice, should rape be punished with rape? An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth? How is this logical?
I am not sure what you mean by applying the logic in reverse. Please clarify.
If life for life is how we conduct criminal justice, should rape be punished with rape? An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth? How is this logical?
I've already stated I don't believe in an eye for an eye... I believe in justice and said chemical castration would be appropriate under certain circumstances. What is the price for killing an innocent person with extreme prejudice?
reverse logic... take OJ... found innocent of capital murder but guilty of killing in civil court. Who must be killed for the crime? how is justice served?
Moderator cut: Not in this forum
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 03-13-2024 at 05:45 PM..
Reason: Read the forum rules
1) Does God intercede regularly in the earthly realm or is mankind through his free will supposed to be a responsible steward to his fellow mankind by removing the worst dangers and expediting one of those seemingly created for destruction to an earlier judgement?
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation. This brings me to my next point.
Is it only reformation though? Or is it a case of does the punishment fit the crime? If I recall correctly she was a ***** why should she be killed when she is fulfilling what females were naturally made for? I mean in their context was the law just especially if we are fearfully and wonderfully made??
2) I think this is a story to tell 1st century Jews in the context of their contemporary laws that the punishment did not fit the crime. Unfortunately, there is no Paul Harvey around to provide “The Rest of The Story” so we don’t know if she did reform, and say, marry and have family and raise them in the ways that Christ taught (if she even heard all his teachings) or if she fell back to life continuing to provide ‘service’ and suffered some later fate. Since Jesus is “three in one” and seemingly would have known what she did thereafter. It wasn’t deemed worthy of inclusion. So, my thought is it is Jesus saying that particular crime doesn’t fit the punishment.
#3 Reformation. Why do we punish people?
3) Crimes that have death penalty for punishment are few compared to many other forms of punishment i.e. degrees of incarceration, restitution etc. Many crimes and their accompanying punishments are meant to provide (when possible) some form of redress to those that are victims of some criminal behavior based upon that particular societies generally agreed upon acceptable forms of behavior as well as designed to protect the general public from those found to be dangerous and predatory.
Revenge? That seems a bit silly and base level cave man. You did something bad so now something bad has to happen to you for satisfaction of others.
Preventative? People will do bad things unless they see consequences happening to those who wrong others. Perhaps some merit here, but I think most murders would happen whether or not there was a death penalty as they are done by either temporarily inflamed/insane people or people who don't have a good moral compass to begin with.
Research has consistently shown capital punishment is not a deterrent and I agree it is a faulty reason.
Nothing in the religious teaching realm I am aware of ever mentions capital punishment as being a 'deterrent', but rather because of a consequence to particular action. And yes, if it allows the victims and those that loved them “closure” then, I am for it. Let’s help restore those who were hurt by the actions rather than give the criminal (in some cases) joy in inflicting damage and pain on others often for years while they “relive” their gruesome crime.
If one believes all the earthly realm wonders we encounter in nature are God’s creation, then I would interpret some of nature’s harshness will carry over into the human realm. Sort of analogous to in earthly realm Jesus saying 'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s'. i.e. abiding by the law of the land.
AND biblically there are concepts of also being responsible to one’s family and community (see 1 Thes 5:15) “Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong but always strive to do what is good for each otherand for everyone else.” Removing the very few who are threats to society is “good for everyone else”.
Then there is the ‘If a man smite thee turn the other cheek’. I read this as an example the “ALL Knowing, Powerful and Everywhere being” can readily say because, well, he knows the ending of the script so he has a purpose to fulfill.
Whether the ‘free will’ behavior of his 'creation' has the capability to consistently "turn the other cheek' would be a bit silly if he wants his followers to be fruitful and multiply because, well, if you consistently make thyself a footstool you will be trodden to death. Nor follow the creator's earthly realm science nature of "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
Although, believers can take solace in the story he can intervene as he did with Saul along the road and make a striking conversion of contrition and hence create new followers and even a great leader.
Reformation? It seems like the goal of society should be to reform others for the better. Rehabilitate them into better people. Norway places an emphasis on reformation and they have lower crime rates.
I've talked to former criminals who have been reformed by finding Jesus and/or the local "Exit Program" which helps with jobs and choices for those getting out of jail.
The death penalty is often a safety issue in regards of so they can't kill again, but if they are locked up for life and can't be reformed within the confines of securing them away where they can't harm that also solves that issue.
Agree mostly. There is an economic issue here in that the cost to society can be exorbitant and the inherent issue in modern times of “Industries” being created which serve to find reasons to validate their existence and the corruption that ensues.
Sir James Wheatstone noted there was an inherent logical problem in a law enforcement institution, “for if the police actually succeed in eliminating all crime, they will simultaneously succeed in eliminating themselves as a necessary adjunct to society, and no organized force or power will ever eliminate itself willingly.”
Let’s see a Pew research study of the hard data on those reformed by different age ranges and the recidivism rates. Then perhaps leaders in society could take better steps to early childhood development intervention versus growing the Prison Industrial complex and its political paybacks to service providers or slave labor.
#4 Hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not murder" is what we are commanded to not do. The death certificate of a person who has been executed reads "homicide" or in other terms intentional murder. If murdering is wrong, why would we murder murderers?
Semantics? Perhaps adoption of different ‘terminology’? Public service killing or human pest control for rabid humans when damaged beyond repair or their actions / behaviors are unacceptable for the long-term safety of others.
Negative consequences should be the expectation of negative “free will” actions they engage in. Basic behavioral science: reward good behavior and penalize bad behavior in a manner commensurate with criminal behavior.
Providing a better environment for others to see the consequences for bad behaviors, however the societal realm of justice expresses itself in their “society”, should help people feel more open and secure in their being in everyday life.
In Christian parlance you could say society in extreme circumstances is “giving the person to the Lord”. Or in Business speak we elevated a customer service issue to higher level support. Who are we to determine how such a reprehensible person should be reformed? Who better than God? He created him/her/it, along with his/her/it free will negative impactful choices to his/her/its creation who are told to be like “Him”- but in Biblical term never can truly be like him. So in these cases the 'creation' failed the test. Perhaps as some believe they get another test under better earthly realm circumstances until they get it right with their creator?
In this instance a violation of the earthly realm legal behavioral response to (fill in whatever life hardship; bad formative years, abandonment, trauma etc..) and society’s response is to go up the hierarchy chain for a better resolution and a possible 'redo' with better circumstances to learn whatever it was the Creator wanted the creation to learn.
#5 Think of the emotional strain on those who must partake on the execution process and their lifetime of stress and strain having to participate in killing people for the government.
Not sure on strain if someone accepts the job. Remember the creator did express that we all have different gifts. I think many who do, simply consider it taking out the trash. Putting a defective person into the recycle bin (if you believe in reincarnation or some such thing).
It’s one of those ‘Dirty Jobs” Mike Rowe mentions that no one wants to do but somebody’s got to do it. A movie example: Guns of Navarone, WW2 setting war in Greece. The female spy amongst the team whom when discovered, the men are reluctant to kill her. David Niven and Gregory Peck have a brief exchange which is quite apt. Until the other female on team saves them the trouble.
As for killing for the government. If you want to consider it beneath an upstanding civilized society then let’s revisit the crimes which are deemed worthy of such punishment. And ask ourselves how would we feel if someone committed the crime (whatever it may be) against you and those you love and hold most dear? Let’s look at the destruction of human lives that have resulted from the perpetrators “Free Will” actions.
Was it “meant” to be by God’s will and the victims and society in general is supposed to learn something from it? Or go Shakespearean and demand your pound of flesh in retribution? Or can it be both learning lesson and an example of consequences in earthly realm for others to witness?
Perhaps they are Christians who interpret Romans 9:21-23 a certain way? And look at them as created for destruction and a lesson for others? Or the souls he’s conceding to Lucifer/Satan? Biblically we are told 'few are chosen'. So why the angst when only a few are 'heavenly' lottery ticket winners.
#6 Many religious people like me, consider myself to be pro-life. I have a hard time being pro-life if I support death in this instance.
There is a reason the judicial system has “degrees” to help mitigate the level of a crime’s particular punishment. Very few qualify for death of the perpetrator. And yes, I find the death of those innocently accused / convicted an abomination of any legal system.
Again citing Jesus via letters to Thessalonians (I Thess 5:15)
“Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong but always strive to do what is good for each otherand for everyone else.” Removing the very few who are threats to society is “good for everyone else”.
#7 The death penalty is often more expensive because of all of the legal appeals and time that it takes. We have a lot of government debt.
Agreed. The number of appeals for cases in which a known admitted criminal gets to prolong and make the family / loved ones of the victims suffer is abhorrent. What about “closure” for the victims and their family so they can “move on”.
I am opposed to people being wrongly convicted, which other posters have mentioned. I would simply expedite known murderers who relish their crimes (serial killers who keep souvenirs / trophies etc. those who brag about them or seek to gain fame from them. No fame. No infamy just prompt disposal to another realm for judgment.
I’m sure many can recall gruesome crime stories in your area. Here’s one from ours some years ago I recall reading and was thinking why wasn’t this person executed promptly and expedited to Heavenly realm for judgement?
Sometime back in 1990s a criminal caught and judged via our earthly realm judicial system admits / brags about repeatedly raping, stabbing a young woman who he abducted, then stuffing her in an automobile trunk and burning her inside. As paying debt to society and protecting the community. I’m for win- win and moving humanity forward. I would much rather the funds to house feed and incarcerate said criminal for the 25 years before he died in prison was spent on youth intervention systems to help identify and potentially negate these types of humans from finding their ‘kicks’ destroying other innocent lives.
For those in the community who (religious or otherwise) feel this is wrong, my challenge to you is, you pay for their food, clothing and shelter for next xx years and, if by chance they get paroled, you have them live next door to you and your family. Can I hear an Amen?
And he asked, how can you, being evil, speak good things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
I think of Jesus suffering on the cross and I think of the man next to him on his own cross who was converted and saved...
While you're thinking, do you consider the promise made to him on the cross?
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
So do you believe what Jesus said?
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
....is that not reformation of a man, making the death penalty moot?
And when the Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth and he shall rise the third day.
Be not deceived, for God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap...
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
Was not the torture and murder or Jesus a wrongful death?
If he died for your sins, them that is a question only you can answer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
There are innocent people who have been condemned. There are people who could be reformed who have been condemned.
"...and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15-16
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
If thou shalt not murder, why should we murder through capital punishment?
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation.
So who thinks that Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more?
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Where was the other person the woman was taken in adultery with?
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.
Deut 17:6-7
So being convicted by their own conscience, they left one by one.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee:
How heinous does a crime have to warrant the death Penalty? Should we not go to war and kill those who killed, to protect the innocent?
Adolf Hitler? Pol Pot? Jeffry Dahmer?
It's a death sentence... let God judge them.
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